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Dublin Core
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Sequoia Jacobson
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An individual.
Dublin Core
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Nathan Carpenter
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Research Assistant
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Oberlin College
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An individual.
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Dublin Core
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Precious Gonzalez
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Research Assistant
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2022
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Oberlin College
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Oral History
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Interviewer
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Avehn Zimmer-Chu
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Lois Watson
OHMS Object
This field contain the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file withing the OHMS Viewer).
https://oberlincollegelibrary.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=A_Lois_Watson.xml
OHMS Object Text
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5.4 Lois Watson 23:00 Africatown January 2023 Oberlin College Library Lois Watson Avehn Zimmer-Chu 1:|21(2)|28(1)|40(7)|54(2)|68(11)|78(6)|92(29)|105(14)|120(15)|128(15)|143(19)|162(8)|171(1)|180(12)|191(9)|193(25)|203(8)|210(9) 0 https://youtu.be/IVBJI1flGPk YouTube video 0 Teaching at Whitley Elementary I was fortunate enough to be assigned my first year teaching at Whitley School. I have a lot of precious memories for that school because it was where I taught as soon as I finished my college education at Alabama State University. I found Whitley to be one of the best secrets that could be found. It was a good school where teachers cared about students. Lois Watson recalls her time as both a teacher and principal at Whitley Elementary School. Cooperate ; Learn ; Mobile ; Parents ; Principal ; Relationships ; Students ; Teacher ; Whitley Elementary Community ; Education ; Educator 315 The Tools for Being a Good Teacher Really, in order to teach, you've gotta...you've gotta love them. You gotta care for them, and just think of them as your own. Give them all of the things that you would want your child to have. And not miss a one, so that child can be a well-rounded student. Lois talks about how her upbringing influenced her teaching methods and what important characteristics a good teacher needs. Care ; Father ; Minister ; Mother ; Plateau ; Prichard ; Religion ; Students ; Teacher ; Tools Community ; Education 514 Teaching During Integration Children are children. No matter what color they are, every momma, every daddy wants the best for their child. No matter what color they are. If you keep that in your mind and you keep, 'Now, is this what I would want for my child? Lois talk about her experience teaching during the racial integration of the Mobile school and how she overcame her initial apprehensions. Black ; Children ; Color ; Love ; Mobile Public School District ; White Education ; Integration 666 Relationship with the Africatown Community It was a warm relationship, So many of them I taught in the first grade and then I taught their children later. And it was just so rewarding-- so warm. They loved their teachers. If you taught in that community, they loved you. And if you gave them all you had, they knew it and they didn’t’ forget you. It’s always such a warm experience meeting students of the past. Lois talks about her relationship with the community of Africatown. Grow ; Relationships ; Rewarding ; Teaching Africatown ; Community 970 Changes over Time Well, it has changed, because you had different people and more were being educated. You know, at one time, as long as you received your high school diploma, that was all that was necessary as far as so many communities felt. Students at Mobile County Training School grew to desire more and wanted to further their education. Lois reflects on her experiences as a teacher and the changes she has noticed throughout the years. Change ; Desire ; Experience ; MCTS ; Profession ; Teaching Africatown ; Community ; Education Oral History Zimmy: I' ; m Zimmy Chu, with the Oberlin College and the Africatown digital archives. I' ; m here with Ms. Lois Watson, it' ; s -- what day is it? -- March 29th. And we' ; re in Mobile, Alabama. Ms. Watson, could you go ahead and say your, um...see I have my cheat sheet. Your full name, your birth date, and your birthplace. Ms. Watson: My name is Lois Smith Watson, my address is 2300 Wagner Street, Mobile, Alabama. Zimmy: And your birth date and the location. Ms. Watson: My birth date is September 2nd, 1933. Zimmy: And where were you born? Ms. Watson: Pardon? Zimmy: Where were you born? Ms. Watson: Mobile. Alabama. Zimmy: Great, fantastic. So if we can just start off with you talking a little bit about Whitley Elementary? You' ; re a teacher there. Ms. Watson: Okay. I was fortunate enough to be assigned my first year teaching at Whitley School. I have a lot of precious memories for that school because it was where I taught as soon as I finished my college education at Alabama State University. I found Whitley to be one of the best secrets that could be found. It was a good school where teachers cared about students. Zimmy: Wow, yeah. So you said it was a well-kept secret? Ms. Watson: A well-kept secret because it' ; s a small town, and the parents there were so interested in their children. They put their children first and that interest just spilled over into the schools and the community. It was a place of learning excellence. Zimmy: Do you have any specific memories or stories about teaching there that you' ; d like to share? Ms. Watson: Well, I can say I was the youngest teacher on the faculty. And I was given the opportunity of getting the best that each of the older teachers had to give as far as what was good for students, how to get parents to cooperate, how to get students to learn to the best of their ability. Zimmy: So it sounds like you learned a lot there. Ms. Watson: I did learn a lot at Whitley. I learned what it takes to be an excellent teacher. I learned to give my all. Students always remember those teachers who gave them their all. And if you sit down with any of them, they can tell you, ' ; My favorite teacher was...' ; And I always wanted to be that teacher. Zimmy: That' ; s great. That' ; s really great. And so you came back a little bit later as principal of Whitley, correct? Ms. Watson: Yes! I had the opportunity of being offered a principal' ; s position there. So I was principal there for about two years, and I got a chance to really see what principals really went through in dealing with teachers and students and parent relationships. Zimmy: And what was that like there, specifically? Zimmy: What was that like at Whitley Elementary in particular? Ms. Watson: Oh, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it because I had a chance to share with young teachers what they needed to know in going into the classroom where there were students who were waiting for them to give them what they needed to prepare them for life. Zimmy: And what do you recall of the Whitley Elementary area being like when you were teaching there? Ms. Watson: It was an area where parents were very concerned about their children. They gave them what they needed. They gave them what they wanted. But all of them were really interested in their children growing to be the kinds of citizens that we would want them to be. And this was very important to them. Zimmy: Yeah. So, before we started the interview, you mentioned education and religion as being the two most important driving forces-- Ms. Watson: Yes, bringing both of them together. Religious values and the desire to know more created a desire to strive for excellence. In that little town, you had a lot of older people there, and they were very influential in seeing that Plateau was on the map. They gave it all that they had, and I was one of the younger ones to step in behind them and carry on that tradition. Zimmy: And you grew up in Prichard? Ms. Watson: Yes. Zimmy: How was that, and how was teaching in Whitley after having grown up there? Ms. Watson: So it was an opportunity for me to get more of what I needed in order to be the teacher that I' ; d always wanted to be. Zimmy: Yeah. And can you speak a little bit more about growing up in Prichard? Ms. Watson: Well...growing up in Prichard was very interesting. I' ; m from a large family. My father was a minister and my mother was a teacher, however, she never taught after marrying and having children because she had eight. But she always had the tools that a good teacher needed. And she instilled in all eight of us, the value of a good education. And how important it was -- along with my daddy. So we got it through the week and then we got it on Sundays. Then we got it all through our lives, from Saturdays to Sunday. Zimmy: Wow, yeah. Nathan: Can I follow up on something? Zimmy: Please. Nathan: You mentioned a couple times the tools that every teacher needs. And I' ; m wondering if you can talk a little bit more about what those are and what you learned about -- I mean, perhaps specifically, to the community you taught in. And then, perhaps more generally as well. Ms. Watson: Well, I always thought of a teacher being the kind of teacher that she would want for her children. And if that teacher had all the characteristics of the teacher she wanted for her students -- for her children -- that would be the perfect teacher. Zimmy: And can you speak to those characteristics a little bit more? Ms. Watson: Really, in order to teach, you' ; ve gotta...you' ; ve gotta love them. You gotta care for them, and just think of them as your own. Give them all of the things that you would want your child to have. And not miss a one, so that child can be a well-rounded student. Zimmy: That' ; s fantastic, yeah. Nathan: You talked a little bit also about working for the school district through the process of the school district integrating, and I was wondering, kind of, what that was like and what impact that had on the school district as you were working in it. Ms. Watson: Well, at first it was scary. Walking into a school where there had not previously been not even one Black teacher -- in a totally white environment -- was quite a challenge for me. And I don' ; t think that most of the teachers there -- the principal and all -- had not had the experience of working with a Black person and I had the qualities that would let the principal know that I had all the tools that I needed to work with to educate that child. Children are children. No matter what color they are, every momma, every daddy wants the best for their child. No matter what color they are. If you keep that in your mind and you keep, ' ; Now, is this what I would want for my child? Zimmy: Alright. So, just to kind of clarify, were you -- you were still working in the Mobile Public School District during integration? Ms. Watson: Yes. Zimmy: Okay. Ms. Watson: And I found that children, they' ; re just children. Everywhere -- no matter what color they are -- they' ; re children. And they need what you have to offer them. No matter the differences, they all have a thirst for knowledge and as a teacher I knew I could give them the things they needed to prepare them for the world. Children are children Zimmy: I think that' ; s all the questions I have right now, *to Nathan* how about you? Nathan: I have a couple I wanted to follow up on. Zimmy: Yeah, please do. Nathan: So when we were talking about the Africatown Plateau community earlier, you said that you have always found it to be incredibly warm, and that when you go to visit the community that people are always saying, ' ; Hi Ms. Watson!' ; Ms. Watson: Yeah, always! I look forward to it. Nathan: Yeah, can you talk a little more about, kind of what your relationship with the community has been over time? Ms. Watson: It was a warm relationship, So many of them I taught in the first grade and then I taught their children later. And it was just so rewarding-- so warm. They loved their teachers. If you taught in that community, they loved you. And if you gave them all you had, they knew it and they didn' ; t' ; forget you. It' ; s always such a warm experience meeting students of the past. Nathan: Were those warm relationships between students and teachers something -- like, was that something you knew was gonna be the case when you started teaching, or is that something that you kind of discovered over time? Ms. Watson: You' ; re learning a whole lot more than you think you' ; re learning, by being out there with students and teaching. You think of all of the things that you have learned, and the things that you know children need, and you just work towards giving it to them. The best way you can. I always gave them all I had. If I had a talent that I wanted to share like piano --- I shared it with them.. New skills would develop new interests. I tried to give them new experiences. It' ; s something when you teach kids and watch them grow. Watch them really want -- they' ; re very hungry, and in need of good teachers. Zimmy: And, kind of to follow up on the question that Nathan just asked, did you find those warm relationships were particularly common in Africatown, or did you find them everywhere that you taught? Ms. Watson: If you' ; re a good teacher, you' ; ll get it everywhere you go. I just was in that area. But they' ; re all just as warm, they' ; re students, they' ; re parents. So no matter what color you are...you know, it doesn' ; t matter. If you' ; re in that classroom and you give it all you' ; ve got and teach those kids. The relationship is established and they' ; ll always love you. Nathan: So how did you work for the school district for? Ms. Watson: You know, I want to get that information. And I' ; m gonna get it because I worked...thirty...about thirty-seven years. And...yeah, I worked about thirty-seven years in the school system. And I had a chance to really -- I was one of the first Blacks to be placed in a white environment to teach, and they sent me to Semmes, a little suburb town, very nice, but I had never been to Semmes. I did not know anything about Semmes, but I had to go there because if I was going to do anything with my education, I had to go where they sent me. And it was an experience I' ; ll never forget. I enjoyed it, I was accepted just like anybody else, you know? So I could even tell other teachers what to do, and how to. How to go in and do what needs to be done without looking at color. And you just have to do that. And I enjoyed my teaching. It was a joy. Nathan: And so, over those almost forty years that you spent in the school district, how did you see it change or evolve over time? I' ; m curious. Like, how it was when you began versus how it was when you left. Ms. Watson: It was -- when I first went into the school system, it changed, because it allowed -- integration allowed teachers to work with others on that same level. And work with kids and get the best out of them. Nathan: And then, I think my last question is, through your, kind of, the time you spent in the Africatown/Plateau community, I' ; m curious how you' ; d seen that community kind of change and evolve from your first years, you know, working at Whitley and growing up in Prichard and all that to today. Ms. Watson: How have I seen it change? Well, it has changed, because you had different people and more were being educated. You know, at one time, as long as you received your high school diploma, that was all that was necessary as far as so many communities felt. Students at Mobile County Training School grew to desire more and wanted to further their education. They wanted to go as far as they could go, and you have doctors, lawyers, teachers, college professors, and every profession that you can think of. You have many prominent, productive people that have come from Mobile County Training School. Nathan: Is there anything else that you wanted to add that we haven' ; t talked about, or from your days at Whitley, or...? Anything else? Ms. Watson: I can only say that I' ; ve enjoyed all of my teaching experiences. And if I had to do it again, I' ; d do it. video 0 https://oberlincollegelibrary.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=A_Lois_Watson.xml A_Lois_Watson.xml
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lois Watson
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Santiago Roman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
John Flen
OHMS Object
This field contain the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file withing the OHMS Viewer).
https://oberlincollegelibrary.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=A_John_Flen.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and/or Transcript and is what make the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 John Flen 00:38:11 Africatown January 2023 Oberlin College Library John Flen Santiago Roman 1:|19(4)|33(3)|51(1)|62(18)|72(15)|85(10)|97(7)|107(9)|117(9)|129(9)|142(11)|152(12)|162(14)|174(13)|186(5)|200(12)|212(12)|227(1)|239(12)|253(1)|282(1)|293(7)|305(10)|314(3)|329(9)|348(5)|356(2)|368(1)|378(8)|391(10)|405(5)|420(6)|435(11)|446(8)|455(15)|468(7)|480(3)|488(4) 0 https://youtu.be/hal_KBh2-Rw YouTube video 0 Introduction I was really pleased with the event. I think overall, I saw ‘lotta old friends that I hadn’t seen in years and Class of ‘68 really put a good program together. Flen introduces himself as a retired public-school teacher living outside Atlanta, Georgia and talks about coming to the annual MCTS reunions. 1965 ; 1968 ; 50th Anniversary ; Africatown ; Atlanta ; Battle House Hotel ; Coach ; Ellenwood ; Georgia ; Liverstone ; Masters ; MCTS ; Physical education Albany State College ; Atlanta (Ga.) ; Classmates ; Mobile County Training School ; Public schools. ; Teacher ; University of Cincinnati. 199 MCTS and Football with Anderson Bill said when you go to college it won’t be so bad, but you get kind of a letdown when you graduate high school, that’s how it was for me. Flen reminisces on his great experience at MCTS and being on the football team with his younger brother, Anderson Flen. Anderson ; Anderson Flen ; Bill ; Bill Kid ; Flen ; MCTS ; Quarterback ; Sandlot ; Team Childhood ; Community ; Education. ; Family. ; Football. ; Leadership. ; Mobile County Training School ; Public schools. ; Sports. ; Stories. 414 Growing up with Role Models So, we had a little community, and everybody always encouraged you to do your best. And I, you know, you get older and you realize that those people had-- they didn’t have-- but they wanted to make your life a lot better Flen talks about growing up in Africatown and the role models that kept the kids protected and out of trouble in the community. Africatown ; Archie Berill ; Ball ; cemetary ; Elks ; Elks Club ; Fish ; Honeybee ; James ; James Patton Robertson ; Magazine ; Mobile ; Plateau ; Popeye ; Protected ; Robertson Childhood ; Community ; Fishing. ; Magazine Point (Mobile, Ala.) ; Mobile (Ala.) ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) ; Role models. 626 No Community like Africatown Everybody knew everybody, knew their- knew their parents. I don’t see- I don’t see that now and I don’t- I don’t think I had that experience since I left the area because… I never see kids playin’ no mo’. Flen talks about how he hasn't found a similar community relationship to Africatown since he left, but felt the community at the MCTS reunion. 50 year ; Careers ; Diversity ; Giles ; Gloria ; Gloria Giles ; Hawai'i ; MCTS ; Plateau ; Playing ; Relationship ; Reunion ; San Fransisco ; Success Childhood ; Classmates ; Community ; Hawaii ; Mobile County Training School ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) ; Relationships. 830 Bringing Back Africatown I hope you can revitalize Plateau, it’s just… I know people ain’t buyin’ land but he said, it’s a tough thing to get young people to come out here. He said, no community can survive without young people Flen talks about efforts to revitalize Africatown and how him and his wife have not lived in Africatown since being married. Anderson ; Anderson Flen ; college ; Georgia ; Joe Womack ; Major Joe ; Mobile ; Montgomery ; Plateau ; Revitalize ; survive ; wife Atlanta (Ga.) ; Community ; Inspiration. ; Marriage. ; Mobile (Ala.) ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Motivation ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) ; Writing. 1012 Difficult Changes in Africatown They closed the projects down and said it was a flood zone. Projects still exist but there’s no people in there. And that hurt the Plateau/Magazine area. Hurt the school too. Flen talks about noticing the changes in Africatown as companies moved away and housing projects were closed down. aerospace ; ammunition ; Brian ; Brookley Field ; California ; Changes ; city ; closed down ; decline ; flood zone ; Happy Hills ; Happy Hills Project ; Historical site ; integration ; Magazine ; Mobile ; Plateau ; suspicious ; teaching ; Texas ; World War II ; WW2 Aviation. ; Family ; Magazine Point (Mobile, Ala.) ; Mobile (Ala.) ; Mobile County Training School ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) ; Politics ; Railroad ; Teacher ; World War Two 1293 Industries in Africatown My dad worked at the railroad, other people worked at the paper mill. There came folks working for the paper mill, Scott and International. Flen talks about his memories of the effects of industry in Africatown and jumping onto the trains that ran through the neighborhood. dust ; EPA ; hogfeed ; jobs ; Magazine ; plant ; Plateau ; smell ; soy beans ; train Health. ; Magazine Point (Mobile, Ala.) ; Mobile (Ala.) ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) ; Railroad 1474 Learning to Fish, Hunt, and Survive So I remember that cause my mama’d take us and my daddy’d go up there, and everybody’s help with the hogs and the meat. Ham, shoulder, and he’d kill separate hogs and that’s how people survived. We’d go get the manure and throw it in the back a’ the wagon and that’s what we’d use to grill on. Flen talks about his father as a fisherman, hunting, his trips up to his grandfather's farm, and other survival skills people in Africatown used. Country ; Domesticated ; Farm ; Fish ; Flour ; Fruit ; Grocery Store ; Hog ; Hog Bayou ; Makeshift ; Meat ; Montgomery ; Smokehouse ; wild Barter. ; Chickens. ; Family. ; Fishing. ; Fruits ; Hunting. ; Learning. ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Skills ; Survival. 1816 Traveling around the Neighborhoods We walked to Prichard Park to play ball when we was kids cause we didn’t have a car and we played ball out there in Plateau and Magazine, but we didn’t go that far. Flen talks about mostly staying in the neighborhood as a kid, but sometimes going out to play ball, or hitching rides to Downtown Mobile. Africatown ; ball ; bus ; Downtown Mobile ; Magazine ; Plateau ; Prichard Park ; Saraland ; walk Mobile (Ala.) ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) ; Sports. ; Teacher. ; Travel. 1963 Coaches and Role Models There’s some people I really wanna see some a’ those guys and some of the older people that helped me along when I was growing up and tried to encourage me. I owe that to them, to come back and say, you know, how you doin’? Glad you’re doin’ well, I’m glad to see ya Flen talks about coming back for the reunion, seeing old buddies, and the coaches and role models that encouraged him growing up. Bill Kid ; buddies ; Cleon Jones ; Coach ; Coach Harding ; Dan ; Dan Crenshaw ; Homer ; James Patton Robertson ; loss ; Ms. McCans ; Pete ; Tucker Cook ; Vancleave Baseball. ; Classmates. ; Community ; Education. ; Educators. ; Encouragement. ; Football. ; Inspiration. ; Relationships. ; Role models. ; Student Oral History 0:00 Roman: So, I' ; m gonna start the interview off. My name is Santiago Roman it is November 24th, 2018. We' ; re here in the Mobile Battle House Hotel filming this interview for the Africatown digital archive project. We' ; re here with Mr. John Flen who' ; s a 1965 graduate of Mobile County Training School. And I just want for the video to see- you agree to this interview and this project? 0:26 Flen: Yes, I do. 0:27 Roman: So, were you at the event last night? 0:31 Flen: Yes, I was 0:32 Roman: What was- so we' ; ve been kind of asking people since this is the 50th anniversary, at least for the 1968 class it' ; s been a pretty big deal for many of the people we' ; re visiting, what that event was like for you and-- 0:44 Flen: It was a real good event last night. I was really pleased with the event. I think overall, I saw ' ; lotta old friends that I hadn' ; t seen in years and Class of ' ; 68 really put a good program together. I just would' ; ve liked-- when the music was playing, I would' ; ve liked something more upbeat for the Class of ' ; 65 when it was going through, 57 and all that so my class would have been able to show the other class up (laughing) 1:23 Roman: (laughing) Yeah. And do you usually come through for the annual--? 1:26 Flen: I been to almost all of ' ; em that they' ; ve had, I missed one or two, but I been mostly every year. I mean, since 2002, 2003, whenever it was started. So, I enjoy ' ; em and I, it' ; s a good program, good event. Old classmates and people who was ahead of you or behind you so it' ; s a really good program. 1:56 Roman: And do you still live in the area? 2:00 Flen: I live in Atlanta, Georgia. Right outside of Atlanta, in Ellenwood, Georgia. I retired up there in 2004- yes- and so I been in Ellenwood Since then. Cause I' ; m retired, retired from public school system. And that' ; s where I live. 2:26 Roman: What were you doing in the public-school system? Were you a--? 2:28 Flen: I taught and coached in athletics, all different types of sports, in high school. And then I retired after about 35 years. 2:41 Roman: And you mentioned that you, or you mentioned earlier that you graduated in ' ; 73 with a masters in physical education. 2:49 Flen: I graduated in ' ; 73 from the University of Cincinnati. Masters in health and physical education. 2:55 Roman: Mhm. And have you been working in public schools since then until now or? 3:00 Flen: I worked in public schools, I also worked in colleges, um, two colleges since I got my masters - Albany State and Liverstone and after that I was in public school for the rest of my career. 3:16 Roman: So, what was it like kind of- going to Mobile County Training School up until when you graduated? 3:26 Flen: I thought it was the only thing, that it was the greatest thing in the world when I was there. I didn' ; t know anything else and I thought we was the best of the best. So, it was great. And when it came to an end it was kind of sad. When it gets almost graduation time you get sorta oh, what am I gonna do now? And I talked to a friend of mine, a guy named Bill Kid and Bill said when you go to college it won' ; t be so bad, but you get kind of a letdown when you graduate high school, that' ; s how it was for me. When you get to college you pick up new friends but it was great for me to be able to kind of - high school, I wish I had applied myself a little more I' ; d be ready had I applied myself a little more and really listened to the teachers because they saw the potentials in me that I didn' ; t see. And that' ; s - but it was a great experience for me. Great experience, great- I thought that was the greatest school in the world. 4:49 Roman: Yeah, it sounds like it was a pretty incredible place to grow up. And so, if you graduated in ' ; 65 does that mean you had maybe a year of overlap where you and Mr. Anderson Flen were going to school together? 5:05 Flen: He played on the football team when he was a freshman, I was a senior. And he played at the same- he was on the field with me at the same time in the ' ; 64 football season he was a ninth grader and he played some games that I played in. I was a senior for the ' ; 64-' ; 65 season. So, we had that. 5:38 Roman: What' ; s it like kind of being his older brother, did you feel you were kind of were responsible for him in any way when you were growing up or? 5:44 Flen: Now he always been-- had leadership qualities. He always been like that, he always we played lotta football growin' ; up, sandlot because we played a lot of sandlot growin' ; up and I played with guys-- was in my grade. He would play with guys that was older than him. They' ; d let him play quarterback and that' ; s how he learned to play quarterback whereas he would play close to home and have fun and I remember 1960s, 61 and they would protect him, let him throw the ball and that' ; s how he became a quarterback. Whereas I would go and play with guys my age and we would just play out there rough and tough so he was more of a leader in that regard because he learned the guys put him in a leadership position where he could - and they wouldn' ; t let anybody touch him cause he was strong, leave him, let him throw the ball. He learned to throw a ball, he learned to be a leader like that. 6:55 Roman: And what was it like for you outside of Mobile County Training School when you were living in Plateau? What was it like growing up in Africatown? 7:03 Flen: It was um-- at a young- at a younger age, middle school- or elementary school, middle school' ; s what you' ; d call it now, it- we was very, we was very protected in our community. The community watched out for us in the sense that they knew your parents. People used to tell me, Boy - people' ; d call me boy- your father catchin' ; some fish, tell him to save me some fish, cause I want some fish today! Say yes, sir or yes ma' ; am, so everyone knew your parents and knew you so you was very protected and people tell you where to go and what to- where not to go. And we got a lotta good role models, we played ball a lot with a guy named James Patton Robertson. He had a semi-pro team ; he was one a' ; those guys that played on Sunday. And before that we was small kids, we had a guy named- called him Popeye, his real name was Archie Berill. And Popeye would take us play ball, put us in his car, twelve or thirteen year old kids, we' ; d go to Prichard Park and play ball. So, we had a little community, and everybody always encouraged you to do your best. And I, you know, you get older and you realize that those people had-- they didn' ; t have-- but they wanted to make your life a lot better. How that became- act that way. Cause a lotta- I didn' ; t wanna play ball one time, my Mama - I said, I' ; m not goin' ; out there play no more ball with him, I' ; m tired a' ; that man! My mom told me, she said, that man out there did nothin' ; to you and get yo' ; butt out there and play. You go an' ; play. An' ; I, I appreciate that because she realized that he was doing something to keep us outta trouble. So, it-- it was great. I guess it was kinda isolated, in our own area that was well protected so it was a great time growing up in Plateau and Magazine in Africatown. And we got a little older, Honeybee at the Elks, he wouldn' ; t let you come to the Elks, all us teenagers tryna go in the Elks and tryna to be grown. And Honeybee knew you? You couldn' ; t come in here. You goin' ; home. 9:45 Roman: try to go into the? 9:47: To the Elks Club. That' ; s a club, Elks, it' ; s down in Plateau- it' ; s still there now. Right across form the graveyard, from the cemetery. And Honeybee wouldn' ; t let you come in there. He knew you, you go home. And so, we had a lotta people, lotta role models. We didn' ; t understand what they was doin' ; at the time but they was tryin' ; to watch out fo' ; us in the best interest of what- you know, we want you to go farther than how we did, what we did. So growin' ; up out there in that area, it was great. It was great. 10:24 Roman: And did you ever find kind of a sense of community like that after you left Plateau? 10:34 Flen: It was a little harder then you know why today- we don' ; t see kids playin' ; in the streets you know, cause a lot of us played in the streets so we knew everybody parents. We, we had a closeness. We played ball, on Sundays somewhere. Everybody knew everybody, knew their- knew their parents. I don' ; t see- I don' ; t see that now and I don' ; t- I don' ; t think I had that experience since I left the area because-- I never see kids playin' ; no mo' ; . I never see kids playin' ; . And-- I miss that. Never see kids playin' ; pick-up games, we play pick-up games no- cause we don' ; t have the money be coached to go where they have the nice ball, we just play out there on the fields at County, we start the ball, it wasn' ; t a manicured field, we just out there playin' ; . And everybody knew everybody, knew their parents too. I never- I haven' ; t experienced that since I left Plateau. Haven' ; t experienced that type of community relationship since I left. 11:52 Roman: Did you maybe get a little bit of a sense of that last night? I know I could tell just, when we rode in on the bus were kind of chanting and there seemed to be a lot of love for each other, a lot of community. 12:05 Flen: It' ; s so good to see people again that you haven' ; t seen in 50 years. It' ; s um.. You wonder what happened to those people. Like Gloria Giles in Hawai' ; i. I did not know she was in Hawai' ; i, I was talkin' ; to ' ; er last night, said I was in Hawai' ; i in 2007 and she' ; s been there 28 years and I did not know that. And you got another guy who' ; s in San Francisco, living in San Francisco, working for the government for the last, I guess, 40 or 50 years. But you know, we had a- a little seed that people come back and realize the diversity in what they have done in life. Just the diversity of that school, it' ; s amazing. But we have people- lawyers, doctors, all kind o' ; things. Little school out there, Mobile County Training so and sometimes it' ; s shocking that these people you don' ; t you just, you just you don' ; t think about it, you don' ; t think about it ' ; til you see ' ; em and talk to ' ; em. You don' ; think about it. 13:22 Roman: Yeah, it' ; s really amazing to see kind of how far so many people and like the successes that so many people have had, kind of says something about the community that was there. Just for me I think in that space that night, being on the bus and seeing everybody, and all of those people were just doing so many different and great things. And how do you feel- do you think that people are kind of motivated to kind of do what they can to bring the community back to where it was when they were living there? Cause I know Mr. Flen gave a speech last night about his efforts to try to revitalize the school, stuff like that. 14:08 Flen: Well, I' ; m hopin' ; that he motivated you cause he' ; s been fighting since 2000. Major Joe Womack been writin' ; , they' ; re very good writers. Joe puttin' ; articles out all the time out there on the internet And he' ; s been, I think with a little more help that he could get-- he' ; s become an inspiration because he' ; s really worked hard, um, certain people work really hard to keep it goin' ; and I think it' ; s gonna change. I think it' ; s gonna change because I saw people there, people who gonna give some money, they gon' ; give some money somebody ' ; bout a million dollars, they give some money. It' ; s gonna- it' ; s gonna change. 14:59 Roman: Would you ever consider moving back to Plateau? 15:04 Flen: I- my wife would not wanna come back to Plateau (laughing) 15:08 Roman: Oh is she from Plateau too? 15:10 Flen: No, she' ; s from Atlant- uh- South Georgia. She' ; d want to go- she' ; ll probably come to Montgomery, I was born in Montgomery. Anderson was the first one born and I have a kid, my older sister passed and I was born in Montgomery. And I went to college in Montgomery- undergrad in Montgomery. But it would be hard to get my wife to Mobile. She might come visit cause she know a lotta people but she would go to Montgomery but not to Mobile. I don' ; t know if you can re- I hope you can revitalize Plateau, it' ; s just-- I know people ain' ; t buyin' ; land but he said, it' ; s a tough thing to get young people to come out here. He said, no community can survive without young people. Gotta have young people to survive. So, I don' ; t know if Pla- if it' ; ll survive. I' ; m hoping it can. I hope it can. 16:14 Roman: (sigh) Yeah. Um-- sorry, just taking it in. But.. so you, you mentioned that, so has your wife ever lived here or is this just not maybe, a place that maybe she-- 16:32 Flen: No, no she never lived, we been married 40 years now, so she never lived in Plateau area. We haven' ; t lived in Alabama since we been married. We lived in Georgia, North Carolina, and that' ; s it. 16:52 Roman: And did you, growing up here did you notice any like, some of the changes happening or was that something that only happened after you left? 17:01 Flen: I had, um, I noticed the changes mostly when I came back. My high school class, class of ' ; 65 was the largest class at Mobile County Training School. So, I didn' ; t notice it then because our class was so large and I - people, when the field closed down, people started leavin' ; and the field closed down I think my-- Junior or senior year 17:30 Roman: Was that the school, or? 17:31 Flen: No, Brookley field was aero, I think it was the aerospace place where they built big plane, it was a company -- one of the largest companies in Mobile and they moved to California, to Texas, so a lot of people moved out of the area and moved to a different state. Some in my class moved to California, they moved to Texas, and they closed Brookley Field down here I would say, aviation- hope I' ; m saying that right. That' ; s when they started, when our school started goin' ; down. And we lost a lot of people- no, and then they- another thing they did, they made Plateau, Magazine a historical site. No buildin' ; homes out there. Some a' ; them homes been out there years and years. And also, then they close Happy Hill Projects down which had a lot of kids living in Happy Hill Projects. And they said that it was a flood zone and people they, it never flooded over there before but suddenly it became a flood zone. 18:45 Roman: Interesting. And that was while you were living there or right after? 18:48 Flen: After I lef' ; , when I came back this was probably last 20 years or so I guess that they made Happy Hills a flood zone. They closed the- cause I used to work in the projects, I used to work in the projects with the kids when I was here one time. I was teaching school at Mobile when there was integration also, and I had a lot of kids, Brian was one kid, Brian went the high school with all a' ; the kids from the projects, Happy Hill Projects and they- they won a high school championship one year, those kids from Happy Hill Projects. We had some kids that went to Tennessee or, big schools so-- but they closed the projects down and said it was a flood zone. Projects still exist but there' ; s no people in there. And that hurt the Plateau/Magazine area. Hurt the school too. 19:47 Roman: Yeah, I remember last time we were here we did some canvassing and walked past the Happy Hill Projects and they were just kind of, empty buildings. Flenn: (nodding) yes. 20:00 Roman: And when you say they closed it, does that mean the Mobile- 20:02 Flen: The city. 20:03 Roman: The city 20:04 Flen: The city said it' ; s a flood zone but it' ; s never flooded or anything. 20:10 Roman: So that sounds, maybe kinda suspicious a little bit yeah. 20:13 Flen: (nodding) It is suspicious! It' ; s political. They want the area, they want the area I think for industry. You know how Magazine got its name? 20:26 Roman: I feel like I might' ; ve been told before but, please tell 20:30 Flen: It was, in World War Two, the magazines- the ammunition for the guns was magazines, that' ; s why they call it magazine. 20:39 Roman: Oh, wow. 20:40 Flen: Magazine Point. 20:42 Roman: So, was there a manufacturer or? 20:43 Flen: They had- the railroad brought ' ; em here, I don' ; t know if they were, if Alabama was manufacturing them but they had ammunition down there on those trains. 20:54 Roman: That' ; s interesting. I did not know that actually. 21:00: It' ; s a lot of things that happen over there. But you got to get the kids back, the young parents. And you gotta give ' ; em something out there that they' ; d want for their home. That' ; s the thing to do. Because most people out there are older people or really poor people. You' ; re not gonna bring a family out there unless something going on out there. And then you worry about pollution out there also. The Chickasaw plant out there, my uncle worked for the Chickasaw, my dad worked at the railroad, other people worked at the paper mill. There came folks working for the paper mill, Scott and International. So, I don' ; t- I don' ; t know what you can do about that as far as EPA comin' ; in and they clean that place up. 21:58 Roman: Yeah. I know that' ; s something we were looking into, seeing what kind of grants and programs are through the EPA. I know that Major Joe has recounted to us some of the stories where he remembered kind of interacting with the companies and maybe the pollution points where he was younger, he talked about, like, playing in areas that now he knows that were really polluted is there any kind of memories like that you might have? Just kind of, what it was like living around- 22:31 Flen: Well, used to have in the fall, used to have that smell over at the high school from the paper mill. Very strong smell. You' ; d get that- used to get that dust. We got that when we were playin' ; football, we didn' ; t think anything of it. From the paper mill and from those different places. I grew up in, I grew up also by the Chickasaw plant, all that black. We grew up and people went fishing out that way. I don' ; t know if that- I don' ; t know how that affected our health but it possibly did. And with the paper mill, had the paper mill down in Magazine. And Plateau had a paper mill. They had good jobs but then all the pollution was over here where the... poor people lived. Everything came on the train, had the train comin' ; in, boxcars because as a kid, we used to get- I used to be with the older guys and we' ; d get soy beans off the train and sell ' ; em for hogfeed. ' ; Kay, so I mean at the train stop, we' ; d jump on trains, sweep soy beans into paper sacks, take ' ; em to sell ' ; em. And people would buy ' ; em cause they feed the hogs. So, that' ; s something we did. 24:02 Roman: (laughing) that sounds a little exciting, jumping on trains. 24:06 Flen: I wasn' ; t even a teenager. I was following behind the older guys. You know what my brother said last night about Dan Crenshaw was his hero? I was following his brother, he had a brother older than him, I used to roll papers with, and I' ; d be out with him, just following behind. There were trains, get soybeans off, we made some money. 24:31: You mentioned fishing earlier and at the very beginning you said your dad fished- was that something you also did when you were younger with your family? 24:42: I would go out there, I never learned when he taught me how to fish, but now he was a great fisherman. He' ; d go fishin' ; when he got out of work and he' ; d catch oodles of fish. Sheepheads, green trouts, crawdads, eels, he' ; d catch all- 25:03 Roman: He' ; d catch eels? 25:04 Flen: Mhm. 25:05 Roman: Where? In Hog Bayou? 25:06: All over there when he was fishing- he had a boat. I had cleaned fish, I cleaned all of ' ; em. Cleaned fish, rabbits, squirrels. I cleaned em cause he' ; d wanna fish and hunt. And then we always, always had fresh fish. So he was a great fisherman until he stopped. He just stopped fishin' ; when he got in his seventies. He said, I' ; m not gon' ; fish no more. 25:37 Roman: And so you cleaned the things- the animals he hunted pretty much every week? 25:42: Well when hunting season was goin' ; , sometimes he' ; d go up into Montgomery and hunt, we had land up there and he' ; d get rabbits and squirrels, possums, coons, he' ; d go up there and - with his cousins, his brother, and they' ; d hunt on his land ' ; cause I was bit over 8, and they killed wild turkeys, deer, all those things. And also when I was growin' ; up, my grandaddy, my mama' ; s father, he had - he farmed 125 acres and he grew everything and he had a hog killing once a year. We' ; d go up there, help clean the hogs and the goats. And I' ; ve seen them and I' ; ve helped clean hogs, and I' ; ve seen the goats bein' ; killed, and my aunt said they' ; d kill a cow, but I never seen a cow being killed. My grandaddy put the meat in the smokehouse and put salt on it. And they' ; d cure meat and then they would take the liver outta the hog and go cook the liver while we was out there cleanin' ; the hog. We would eat that with some rice and bread, the liver. And I remember all that, I was a little kid cause my grandaddy died when I was ten years ol' ; . So I remember that cause my mama' ; d take us and my daddy' ; d go up there, and everybody' ; s help with the hogs and the meat. Ham, shoulder, and he' ; d kill separate hogs and that' ; s how people survived. We' ; d go get the manure and throw it in the back a' ; the wagon and that' ; s what we' ; d use to grill on. My mama' ; d go out there sometimes, go out and put chicken in the pen with some clorox and some water, and then she' ; d go kill the chicken, bring the chicken in and go fry it. That was surviving skills people taught you and you remember except they don' ; t do it anymore. That' ; s what they did at that time. 28:00 Roman: What other kind of survival skills did your parents or the community teach you, do you think? 28:07 Flen: (laughing) I can tell you, they knew how to survive. They carried fruit, they carried pails and feed, I remember seeing my uncle make butter, with the churn to make butter. Took the 25 pound sacks of flour and made pillow cases out of ' ; em, some of ' ; em made dresses out of ' ; em. 25- 25 pound sack of flour make a pillow case after you get the flour out. I remember people' ; d barter cup of flour, some salt, some pepper, couple eggs. And we had chickens right here where I grew up. We had chickens and we' ; d get eggs from the chickens. So we had, mama' ; d go out and kill the chickens she got tired of ' ; em. We had a whole kinda- how to survive. 29:07 Roman: Yeah, so now do you usually just go to the grocery store to get all that kind of stuff, like eggs, food- do you miss kind of living, and having all the animals around you and kind of eating, just like seeing the process or do you prefer going to the grocery store to do everything? 29:23 Flen: Well I got smaller in that regard so I just go to a grocery store. I - when I go in the country, like I was there the other day with my cousins, they asked me- they gave me a piece of deer meat, I never did eat the deer meat cause I gave it away but, I would love to get rabbit here once in a while. A wild rabbit, something like that. I would love to- just to cook it. Just to go back and see how it tastes because - but, I' ; m too domesticated now to (Roman laughing) go back to the old way. (laughing) 30:05 Roman: Yeah, I know Major Joe' ; s brother Jessie still goes hunting regularly around here. So did you ever- when you were growing up in Africatown did you ever kind of leave the community or did you mostly just stay inside, I know, you mentioned earlier you just kind of stayed or you tried not to leave ' ; cause you didn' ; t wanna get into trouble or- 30:30 Flen: Yeah well growing up, the only time I came back from teaching school I moved out of Africatown but I still spend most of my time over there when I wasn' ; t working. I still spent my time over there, playin' ; ball with the guys, still playin' ; ball with the same guys until I left when I was 30 years old, I left when I was 30 and that' ; s when I haven' ; t been back to stay. I' ; ve just been back to visit and so it' ; s been 40 years now. 31:03 Roman: Yeah. But when you were kind of growing up, like in high school and middle school did you really just stay in Plateau or did you- 31:10 Flen: Stayed in Plateau and Magazine. We didn' ; t have cars so you had to walk and you couldn' ; t walk too far. We walked to Prichard Park to play ball when we was kids cause we didn' ; t have a car and we played ball out there in Plateau and Magazine, but we didn' ; t go that far. We would go to Saraland, a lot of kids came from Saraland that we went to school with and we had to get somebody' ; s car to go to play ball but that was later one when we was older. But most of the time, most of the kids I knew, we didn' ; t have a car. Folks didn' ; t have a car. And so, we couldn' ; t, we didn' ; t have a driver' ; s license, we just went to- stayed in the area basically unless somebody took us outta the area. But a lot a' ; times, when we used to pay our bills or went downtown for somethin' ; , I would bum a ride or catch the bus or walk. I' ; d walk down there. 32:02 Roman: Walk all the way to Downtown Mobile? 32:05 Flen: Yeah. Yeah, ' ; bout three miles. Three miles, so I always walked a lot so that wasn' ; t a big deal so if she tell me go downtown to do something, I would call a lot a' ; rides up that way, bum me a ride. Else, I' ; d probably catch the bus. 32:26 Roman: You mean like hitch your thumb out for a ride or something? (Flen nods) ohhh. Well I think-- I don' ; t wanna take up too much more of your time but if there' ; s anything else you wanna say or talk about, maybe some people you' ; re looking forward to see, like, a few specific people maybe you were looking forward to see at the event last night that you hadn' ; t seen in a while? 32:51 Flen: Well no, you always wanna see more of your classmates and wonder what they' ; re doin' ; , because we' ; re losin' ; a lot of mass since 2003 when we started class reunion, at least with my class of ' ; 65, we lost a lot of people. 4 of ' ; em this year. So you always like to see the guys and hope they' ; re doin' ; well and you try to do well so, and I, there' ; s some people I really wanna see some a' ; those guys and some of the older people that helped me along when I was growing up and tried to encourage me. I owe that to them, to come back and say, you know, how you doin' ; ? Glad you' ; re doin' ; well, I' ; m glad to see ya. And that' ; s important to them because when I, a lotta the kids that I taught in school, I' ; d be glad to see doing well. And proud of ' ; em. Make me feel good to come back and say, Hey coach how you doin' ; coach? So that' ; s basically what I' ; m gonna do. 33:58 Roman: So, some of your role models were there last night? 34:02 Flen: Dan Crenshaw was there, Tucker Cook was there, Mr. P, my favorite teacher was there, I got a chance to speak to him. I think Coach Harding will be there tonight, Ms. McCans gonna be there tonight, I dunno who else gonna be here. And some a' ; the other people were James Patton Robertson, he' ; s gone. Bill Kid, I' ; m gon' ; try to go by his house today, Cleon Jones, who used to play for the Mets but he wasn' ; t there- walk up on him somewhere. Got a lot of ' ; em goin' ; on, most a' ; the guys, they gone. So I wanted a chance to see ' ; em, many a' ; them died, I' ; m hoping to see Dan, Big Dad, we called him Big Dad. And Pete, I hope I get a chance to see Pete today so I' ; m gonna ride- when I leave here I' ; m gonna ride to, after I practice for this thing tonight, gonna try to see some of my old buddies, say hi to those guys. 35:17 Roman: Do you have maybe any stories about some of your role models that you kind of, or like fond memories or something? Things that happened that you can remember with any of the people you just mentioned? 35:32 Flen: Well, some stories I think- Coach Harding was my baseball coach and he really encouraged me and Mr. P was, I tell him all the time, he was the best teacher I ever had. Because he tried to work, never got loud, but he always tried to encourage you and work with you as a instructor. I kinda, thought about him a lot when I was teaching as a role model and Coach Harding as a coach, he always was tellin' ; us about the mustard seed, he said yo' ; heart is like a mustard seed - is it a mustard seed or?- it' ; s a real small seed that grow a real big tree. And he said, a mustard seed was real small, so he encouraged us to do better. You know and I, I look at those people now and I really appreciate what they tried to do. I dunno I was listening, I wish I had listened more. I appreciate what they did. So, that' ; s about it. 36:46 Roman: And did you- I guess my last thing, so it sounds like you took some of the lessons that you learned and you tried to give that back to the people, the children that you, the kids that you taught as a coach. (Flen nodding) 36:59 Flen: Yes, I learned some from what my college coach, Homer and Vancleave, and they were something else, Vancleave he was the head coach and Homer was the assistant coach. I played a lot back in college would always encourage you, in fact he and Chris, the football coach is Chris, in fact, but Homer would get in your face, he' ; d be red in the face but he would motivate us to do better. We wasn' ; t big but we was tough. And Coach Harding was coached by Coach Vancleave they was tough but they - tough times to the last, and tough people. Tough times make some tough people. We was tough. And they worked us. And I appreciated that. Really ' ; ppreciate it. 38:01 Roman: That sounds- sounds really fun, thank you so much for taking time- 38:09 Flen: Thank you! Thank both a' ; y' ; all! 38:10 Roman: Yeah, of course. video 0 https://oberlincollegelibrary.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=A_John_Flen.xml A_John_Flen.xml
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John Flen
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Nathan Carpenter
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Horace Gill
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5.4 Horace Gill 39:53 Africatown January 2023 Oberlin College Library Horace Gill Nathan Carpenter 1:|19(14)|31(13)|42(7)|53(12)|64(12)|73(7)|89(11)|112(2)|124(11)|132(7)|148(2)|164(5)|174(4)|184(8)|193(6)|210(10)|230(11)|243(10)|251(2)|261(8)|276(4)|291(1)|301(1)|314(10)|326(3)|336(1)|344(10)|356(9)|365(11)|374(5)|388(15)|399(14)|407(15)|420(3)|432(5)|441(1)|455(15)|464(3)|478(15) 0 https://youtu.be/7UXTacpIsoU YouTube video 0 Introduction at the Reunion We was the first class to be integrated and to go in places which was open to all mankind. So we was very excited, it was the first one in history not to have the prom at the high school. Gill talks about the importance of the reunion, senior prom, and introduces MCTS's legacy. Anderson ; Battle House Hotel ; Cleon Jones ; Integration ; Larry Shields ; Prom ; Reunion ; Tommie Agee Childhood ; Community. ; Education. ; Family. ; Mobile County Training School ; Segregation. ; US Air Force 295 Crenshaw Family Legacy The Crenshaw family was very well known in the community and neighborhood. We contributed a lot to the neighborhood. I remember when my grandfather used to have a vegetable truck, and go around the neighborhood selling vegetables and different things on his vehicle. Gill talks about his family's history in Africatown: his grandfather's vegetable truck, his family members in the military, and his father's union. 1965 Segregation Act ; Africatown ; Crenshaw ; Economy ; Grace Agee ; grandfather ; Horace ; Joe Womack ; Vegetable truck ; Vespa ; William Crenshaw Community ; FBI ; Green Berets ; Leadership. ; Magazine Point (Mobile, Ala.) ; Military. ; Mobile (Ala.) ; Mobile County Training School ; Nursing. ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) ; Prichard (Ala.) ; Strike. ; US Air Force ; Vietnam War 618 From " ; Plateau" ; to " ; Africatown" ; They changed the name to Africatown in...must've been in the 70s. Cause they used to call it -- oh! Like Prichard and Mobile area, that's what they used to call it. Plateau. Gill remembers the neighborhood's name change. Africatown ; Change ; name ; Plateau Mobile (Ala.) ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) ; Prichard (Ala.) 690 Air Force Career Path I used to be a firefighter, that was my first career field. My second career field was communication, and with the communication and I was actually putting up all cable and telephones and all that. And my third career field, I was a jack mechanic. I actually worked on the C-5 aircraft. Gill talks about his transformative career in the Air Force working in multiple job fields. Accomplishment ; apprenticeship ; Base ; C-5 aircraft ; Combat ; criminal intelligence ; Desert Shield ; Desert Storm ; Firefighter ; Foundation ; mechanic ; training ; Veteran ; Vietnam Communication. ; Desert Shield, Operation, 1990-199 ; Desert Storm, Operation, 1991 ; Education. ; FBI ; History. ; Military. ; US Air Force ; Vietnam War 1012 Keeping in Touch Like Anderson, I talk to him probably a couple times a month. He always email people and kind of makes you talk, *laughs* kind of keep in touch with the whole class. Gill talks about keeping in touch with his MCTS classmates. Anderson ; Career ; Class president ; contact ; MCTS Classmates ; Mobile County Training School 1075 Traveling on the Job *laughs* I have lived some of everywhere. I moved to Texas probably three years ago. Before then I was living in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Before then, California. I was in the Bay Area -- that's where my last military job was. Gill talks about moving around the country and the world throughout his career. Albuquerque ; Amsterdam ; Bay Area ; Benefits ; California ; Civil service ; Fort Hood ; Germany ; Harker Heights ; Korea ; New Mexico ; TDY ; Temporary Duty ; Texas ; Vietnam Military. ; Travel. 1242 Meeting his Wife Oh, I actually met my wife in Oakland, California. And we was at a McDonalds, *laughs* and then I kind of talked to her, got her number, and then called her up and we kind of dated for a year, and then we got married. Gill talks about meeting his wife, traveling, and settling down with her at the end of his career. Albuquerque ; Balloon Festival ; Fire Chief ; Oakland ; Wife Marriage. ; Retirement. ; Travel. ; US Air Force 1385 Close-knit Communities See, growing up then, it was like a family. Everybody knew each other ; you didn't lock your doors, you kept your doors unlocked. Everybody on the street, even...they can discipline you, they can...they see you're doing something, they'll say -- they'll discipline you and say, " ; I'm gonna tell your grandfather." ; Gill talks about the family-like communities while growing up in Africatown, working in the military, and when living in Albuquerque. Albuquerque ; Anderson ; Brick stone work ; Care ; Close-knit ; Closeness ; Cora Coleman ; Crenshaw ; foundation ; Grandfather Classmates ; Community. ; Encouragement. ; Family. ; History. ; Military. ; Mobile County Training School ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) ; Relationships. ; Student ; Teacher ; US Air Force 1827 Childhood Role Models He was a great contributor to my life, but my favorite person was my uncle who actually died in Vietnam and he was a captain in the army, but he's such a leadership person and... I mean, he -- he was everything. Gill talks about other family members and friends that served as role models during his childhood. aircrafts ; Dry cleaning ; Gary Simpson ; Joe Womack ; Mr. Leon ; Saul Smith ; Vietnam Childhood ; Education. ; Football. ; Leadership. ; Military. ; Mobile County Training School ; Role models. ; Teacher ; Travel. ; US Air Force 2061 Returning for the Reunion I'm gonna be here to see them. And Anderson put a lot on people's hearts in saying, " ; look, we're not gonna live forever, and we need to see each other." ; Gill talks about the importance of the MCTS reunion and seeing old friends. Anderson ; Fifty-year ; Fortunate ; Reunion Classmates ; Retirement. 2185 Teachers at the Reunion I hope Miss McCann will be there. She's been around forever. She taught my mother, my uncles, and everyone. And so when I got to the school, she said, " ; I already know you. You know what's coming." ; Gill talks about the coaches and teachers he hopes to see at the reunion. Coach Arden ; Coach Clark ; congressman ; Integration ; Miss McCann ; Prom Family. ; Mobile County Training School ; Teacher 2302 Conclusion To sum it up, it’s a pleasure to gather and assist to pass on the history for years to come, to let the younger generation to come, to let them know that MCTS was the oldest and first black school in the state of Alabama. It contributed a lot of history. Gill talks about the importance of passing down the history of MCTS. African American School ; Alabama ; Appreciation ; Closeness ; Grandkids History. ; Mobile County Training School Oral History Nathan: This is Nathan Carpenter from Oberlin College. I' ; m with Ify Ezimora and Santiago Roman, and we' ; re with Mr. Horace Gill-- Mr. Gill: Horace Gill, yes. Nathan: --Mr. Horace Gill, doing an oral history interview today and I just wanted to state for the record and on video as well that your participation in this interview is completely voluntary, and you' ; re welcome to end the interview at any time. And thank you so much for doing this with us. Mr. Gill: No problem. Nathan: Great, so I guess I was wondering if you could start out by briefly talking about what this reunion means to you, why you' ; ve come back, and what you' ; re looking forward to this weekend. Mr. Gill: Well it means a lot -- this will be my first reunion. I didn' ; t get a chance to make the other ones because I was in the military and also worked for the government, so this is sort of important because it was a historical (01:00) class to us. You know? We was kind of together for a long time, and we was the first class after integration and segregation to actually attend our prom night right here in this hotel. And we kind of wrote that history also of the school to be left for people down the line -- younger generation -- to get some of that history. The things that those classes -- and our class -- went through. And that' ; s why it' ; s very important to me, becoming participating and to make this very successful for you guys also. Nathan: Can you talk a little bit about that prom and what that was like for you at the time? As a...you were a senior in high school? Mr. Gill: Yes. It was exciting because it was the first class (02:00) after -- the segregation was in ' ; 65, but we was the first class to be integrated and to go in places which was open to all mankind. So we was very excited, it was the first one in history not to have the prom at the high school. So we was the first class to go outside the high school to actually have prom and to be here in the Battle House was a great feeling. I mean, a lot of accomplished men that history brung that it was open for us and we was the first class that went down in history to attend the prom outside. Nathan: And so one thing that we hear a lot from alums that we speak with is how much Mobile County Training School meant to them growing up, and I' ; m curious if that was your experience as well (03:00) and if you could speak to that a little bit. Mr. Gill: Oh yes, definitely! My parents went to the high school. Matter of fact, it was the oldest high school in the whole state of Alabama and founded in the 1870s. And all my aunts and uncles graduated from that high school, so it was one of the well-known high schools around, because we only had like four or five here. And it' ; s kind of like a family. Everybody knew -- even though you went to another high school, everybody knew each other and so all of my relatives and uncles and... It was a lot of history there. And further down the line I' ; m gonna be talking and give you a little bit more into the history even though my family and one of the families that' ; s well-known in the city of Prichard, or Mobile, you know? And so, like Anderson, his family, (04:00) we all knew each other. We was just like a whole big family community. But for the school not to exist no more as a high school, it was a lot of history at that school. So we had a lot of professional football players came from that high school, professional baseball players like Tommie Agee, Cleon Jones, Larry Shields. They played professional, and we had some academic people that worked for one of the first colonels in the Air Force that graduated from a couple of classes before me. And her job was over all the nursing in the United States Air Force, you know, so it was a lot of accomplishment came from that school. Nathan: So you mentioned you were talking about your family and their history with the community. Did you want to go more into that? (05:00) Mr. Gill: Oh yeah, my family was the Crenshaw family -- it' ; s a big family. My grandfather, he actually came -- his grandfather -- I mean, his father lived to be 113 years old. His dad actually came over on one of the last slave ships that was docked here. In one of the last slave ships that was found here -- he came over on one of those, and besides that, my family contributed a lot to the military. And, matter of fact, I had an uncle, he got killed in 1953 in the largest plane crash of the Air Force. 230 people got killed, and my mother had another brother which was William Crenshaw, (06:00) and he died -- he was a captain, green beret, and he actually got killed in the army also. And her third brother actually, he was in the Air Force and he passed away. So it was a lot of history of that contribution to the military. And myself, I spent 25 years in the Air Force, and I actually worked as a criminal intelligence for one of the guys who' ; s one of the FBI directors -- ex-FBI director who' ; s doing an investigation now. Mr. Gill (Addendum 6/24/2020): So I used to work under his operation on the west coast before he became director of the FBI at the headquarters in Washington DC, so a lot of history from the beginning when he was special prosecutor and he rose up to be director of the FBI. He contributed a lot to the government and to the country. And to see where we are today and all we have accomplished from the beginning, so we' ; re gonna maintain that history. The leadership that I received under his leadership and the United States Air Force. Mr. Gill: That' ; s what gave me the leadership that I (07:00) didn' ; t have to enlist in the military, but I figure I' ; m supposed to contribute something Mr. Gill (Addendum 6/24/2020): ...back to the community and the school which I graduated from, which was Mobile County Training High School . And so my grandfather was very well-known in the community and neighborhood. Our family was an original family that settled in the community of Plateau, Alabama, which is Africatown now, Magazine is another community, and Prichard, Alabama. The Crenshaw family was very well known in the community and neighborhood. We contributed a lot to the neighborhood. I remember when my grandfather used to have a vegetable truck, and go around the neighborhood selling vegetables and different things on his vehicle. He gave out credit to the neighborhood and sometimes donated food to the neighborhood. He always collected less than he contributed. He retired from Scott Paper Mill in the 80s, after that, that' ; s when he took on the job of selling vegetables, and that was mostly to help the community out. He had three sons, which all served in the military. His first son named Horace, he was killed in the largest plane crash in 1953, when 280 military soldiers died in Japan, when the airplane was taking off. His second son died in Vietnam in 1967 and he was a captain in the United States army in the Green Beret. We happened to read his will and knew he wasn' ; t coming back. The third son, he served in the US Air Force, and he has passed away since, several years ago. My grandmother, she died at the age of 69 after the first two sons died. They said she never recovered from the stress from the both sons who died. (08:00) That is why we were a very close knitted community, most of all the students that grew up together and graduated together, and some that came back and became teachers at the same school. Some went to professional sports. And one young lady, named Grace Agee, she was a one star general in the Air Force, she became the head of the nursing program in the US Air Force. Mr. Gill: And so my grandfather was very well known in the area. Everybody knew him. I mean, he had a vespa truck, he used to go all around the neighborhood and just give out food and stuff, you know? He didn' ; t ever collect that much money, he was retired from Scott Paper mill, and that was one of the largest paper mills in the city here. And on my father' ; s side, he worked for International Paper Company, and my father actually was a union leader, which was -- I think he was the president of the union, and Joe Womack' ; s (09:00) father was also... And they made a lot of changes. They went on strike to demand equal rights, you know, during that time. After the 1965 Segregation Act was passed that demanded fair wages and the same wages. So that strike for nine days not only helped his family, which was us, plus he had the community and the whole southern states of the South, which was Alabama, Arkansas, Mississippi, and... I' ; mma say Alabama, Arkansas, Mississippi, and Tennessee that was the southern craft paper company, which was international and which brung wages up to the average wage of about $40,000 a year. Which not only (10:00) helped the economy here, but, you know, was a great change for all the family life. Parents worked over there, so there was a lot of accomplishment there. Nathan: And you said this was your grandfather who had that vegetable truck you were talking about? Mr. Gill: Yes. Nathan: Was that in Africatown? Mr. Gill: Yes. He used to be all over there in Africatown. During that time, they called it... Let' ; s see...I had a date but... They changed the name to Africatown in...must' ; ve been in the 70s. Cause they used to call it -- oh! Like Prichard and Mobile area, that' ; s what they used to call it. Plateau. They used to call it Plateau. P-L-A-T-E-A-U. And they actually, when I came back from overseas, (11:00) they actually changed the name to Africatown, so... Nathan: So you grew up knowing it as Plateau? Mr. Gill: Yeah. It was Plateau for years and years, and I guess after -- I came back from Vietnam in ' ; 69 -- no, ' ; 70. And they had a change. You know, coming back to your area, cause I stayed gone almost six or seven years. And when I came back, they had changed the name. Nathan: Did you see combat in Vietnam? Mr. Gill: Oh yes. Yes. I' ; m a veteran of three wars, so I actually seen Vietnam, Desert Storm, and Desert Shield. Nathan: Can you talk a little bit -- you mentioned there' ; s a really, kind of strong military history in your family and you' ; re also a veteran as well -- kind of what that has (12:00) meant for you, or what it meant for you growing up versus what it means for you now. Mr. Gill: I encourage -- it meant a lot to me, you know, I think it' ; s an experience that I think every young man should have a choice to...just to see what it is and to be a part of a military family. It' ; s not according to me, it' ; s to what you go in. The Air Force is more education, you know, when you actually get out the Air Force after four years, you automatically have a ' ; a degree' ; from the university of the Air Force. And in the army, it' ; s more like ground accomplishment. But it' ; s such a big change in the military, you can see they kind of operate (13:00) like a city within a city. And so actually, people can actually go on that base and never have to come off cause everything you need on that is there. They have Chili' ; s restaurants, they have Outbacks on the base, they have hotels like Holiday Inn' ; s and all that. That is around, by the base, by the military. And so when I first went in, it was more of a combat atmosphere, but now it' ; s -- the Air Force is something like a college atmosphere. But the army, everybody says the Air Force is kind of spoiled brats, you know? We probably are, but I think it' ; s whatever your goal is and what you looking for, and I think it can give you some foundation, and that' ; s what it actually gave me. Foundation. Cause I actually went in when I was seventeen, and I think it was a great experience (14:00) I ever had, because I ended up with -- I used to be a firefighter, that was my first career field. My second career field was communication, and with the communication and I was actually putting up all cable and telephones and all that. And my third career field, I was a jack mechanic. I actually worked on the C-5 aircraft. During that time, it was the largest plane in the world, so... And my fourth career field was criminal intelligence, which I went back to Quantico -- the FBI academy -- for eight weeks of schooling and doing different things. From 9/11. That' ; s when 9/11 happened. It was a great experience for me, even in combat situations in Vietnam, it was just like (15:00) we was mostly supporting aircrafts -- fighting planes and fire protection for the base there. We' ; d never get hit by fighter pilots, by rockets, by bombs, anything like that. And then the same thing, Desert Storm, Desert Shield. So we worked as a group with the combat group. And the last job I had as a criminal intelligence and I was actually working with the different law enforcement on the team -- consists of different agencies, with the military and with the Air Force and army. So, yeah. Nathan: And so is that -- it was right after you graduated from Mobile County Training School? Mr. Gill: When I graduated from Mobile County Training, my first job was a firefighter. Nathan: Okay. Mr. Gill: Yeah, and I did that almost five years. Nathan: And then you went into the Air Force? (16:00) Mr. Gill: No, no, that was-- Nathan: Within the Air Force? Mr. Gill: Yes. That was the job in the Air Force. Air Force is a technical branch of service, so whatever your career field is, you have to go to school for it. And so, actually from the school, then you go perform on your job. And actually on your job, you have to go through apprenticeship, you have to go through a specialist, and you have to go through a supervisor. Of course, you constantly have to go back and forth to school. And so, I was an instructor...two years for the Air Force fire protection school, and so all I did was, people come in straight from the base to training, they come to the school there and learn firefighting, and then they go to the base. Wherever they' ; re stationed at. Nathan: And did you keep in touch with your classmates as you kind of moved into your career? Mr. Gill: I kept in touch with some of them (17:00), and every time we came back home I ran across some of my classmates. And I actually -- it was like four of five of us went in together, and every time we came home we made contact with each other and kind of find each other through the career...probably about twenty years. And we see ' ; em, you know, talk. Like Anderson, I talk to him probably a couple times a month. He always email people and kind of makes you talk, *laughs* kind of keep in touch with the whole class. He was kind of the glue of the whole class, keeping everybody together. And he was actually the class president and he was the -- kind of that same leadership role he used to do, he' ; s making sure that all this happened. And he actually put all the people together. Nathan: So how' ; d you end up living in Texas? Mr. Gill: *laughs* I have lived some of everywhere. (18:00) I moved to Texas probably three years ago. Before then I was living in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Before then, California. I was in the Bay Area -- that' ; s where my last military job was. I was actually working in the federal building of San Francisco. It was military and civil service, so I kind of moved around every chance I got, so even in my military career, I probably was station from Korea to Germany to Vietnam to -- back to Germany. Been in Amsterdam, been to...I was TDY a lot. TDY means ' ; temporary duty' ; . And temporary duty is anything under six months. So my specialist, (19:00) they kind of moved me around a lot. So they sent me here and sent me there, you know? And actually, when they was bringing computers up -- upgrading computers on the base -- I was with a team doing that also. So they would call, you know, the cap five and all that stuff. So we was actually doing that, so that' ; s how I got a chance to move around a lot. But when I actually got out, California got too hot, so I moved to Albuquerque. And when I moved there in 2005, probably the population was two hundred and fifty thousand and I seen it grow to...you know, a million people, so one morning I said, " ; it' ; s too crowded here now, let' ; s move." ; So we moved to Texas. Small town called Harker Heights, next to Fort Hood. You ever heard of Fort Hood? Largest base in the world -- actually over twenty thousand troops. (20:00) And so most of the army deployed people from that base, you know, and they go on missions. Nathan: Is that part of why you decided to be in that area? Mr. Gill: Well, my benefits. See, when you retire from the military, you get benefits the rest of your life, so either on the base or either off the base. But a lot of the benefits you have is shopping on the base, doing different things on the base. You get that lifetime, and it saves a lot of money, so you actually probably saving fifty percent versus shopping outside the base, so... Nathan: And so when you were doing all this travelling around and the short term jobs throughout your run, was your wife coming with you to all those different jobs? Mr. Gill: Sometimes she did, sometimes she didn' ; t. To the friendly areas, yes, to the non-friendly, (21:00) no she wasn' ; t allowed. But she did a lot of travelling. Lots of travelling. Nathan: How did y' ; all end up meeting? Mr. Gill: Hm? Nathan: How did you and your wife end up meeting? Mr. Gill: Oh, I actually met my wife in Oakland, California. And we was at a McDonalds, *laughs* and then I kind of talked to her, got her number, and then called her up and we kind of dated for a year, and then we got married. She had never been out -- you know, she' ; s an Oakland person, she' ; d never been outside of the state of California. And I started taking her places, and she actually had a chance to see what life was in the Air Force. And then, when I got out, retired (22:00) from the Air Force, I worked for the department of the army as a fire chief. I was a fire chief for the local government base, and they closed the base down after probably about fifteen years and I retired again. During that time, they closed about probably fifty percent of the bases in California. And they gave me a chance to retire a second time, and I said, " ; let' ; s move." ; And so we ended up in Albuquerque, a beautiful city. Beautiful. You ever heard of the balloon festival? Oh yeah, ten thousand balloons in the sky at one time. That' ; s actually two weeks -- every October, from the first to the fifteenth of October, you can see all shapes, all types, all balloons representing all the countries. They actually come and it' ; s a big event, but after that it got too crowded, (23:00) so we' ; re in a small town now. Nathan: To kind of go back, I' ; ve been curious in you talking about, for example, your grandfather' ; s vegetable truck and then also talking about what that community in the military meant to you as well. And so I' ; m curious if from your youth in Plateau or your experience at Mobile County Training School, if there are other examples of that community there that stood out to you kind of like that vegetable truck. Mr. Gill: Yeah, like the history of my grandfather, I used to observe him doing a lot of things. He was a lot of a people person, you know? He really liked people and back then your work meant a lot. As a kid growing up, I used to observe a lot and I hung around my grandfather a lot just to...he did all kinds of stone work. He used to, on the side, (24:00) besides working at the paper mill and running the vegetable truck, he used to do a lot of brick stone work. You know, like foundation work. And then I used to be with him a lot and just ride with him on the vegetable truck, and how people come up and, " ; Oh, Mr. Crenshaw, I don' ; t have no money today but I would love to have this or that." ; And he said, " ; get it." ; And everybody paid on their honesty, you know? You didn' ; t keep no books or nothing, and then they actually...but everybody knew him. See, growing up then, it was like a family. Everybody knew each other ; you didn' ; t lock your doors, you kept your doors unlocked. Everybody on the street, even...they can discipline you, they can...they see you' ; re doing something, they' ; ll say -- they' ; ll discipline you and say, " ; I' ; m gonna tell your grandfather." ; " ; I' ; m gonna tell your mother." ; " ; I' ; m gonna tell your dad." ; And so it was a (25:00) close-knitted community, and everybody looked out for each other. Today, you have a neighbor, you don' ; t even know ' ; em for the whole time you' ; re there, but see back then it wasn' ; t like that. It was just like we all was one big family. And I think that' ; s -- after years, I look at, observe my kids now ; that is not there. I know I raised them like that, but it' ; s not there, it' ; s just a whole different time, you know? But I want them to see what it was like back then and how people cared about each other. How, if we needed -- if anybody needed anything, they' ; d come over and say, " ; could I borrow some flour?" ; or some sugar, or some...whatever, you know? You had it. It was there. " ; Can I get a couple of dollars?" ; That' ; s the way it operated. And my mother ' ; nem, it was (26:00) -- let me see... It was actually nine of them, and she only had three brothers and she lost all of them, and the sisters. And they was very close. They always looked out for each other, and that' ; s the same way today. And in my family, it was eight people: four boys and four girls. And you see it there, but it' ; s not like it used to be. And so people can see the kind of close-knitted history. Even in the school there -- at Mobile County Training High School -- it was the same atmosphere. The teachers was like your parents. I mean, what they said, you knew they look out for your best. And close-knit, the students were close-knitted. That' ; s why when I went just to see (27:00)-- I knew...I hadn' ; t seen Anderson three years, I think, but I knew him right away. And we was talking and he said, " ; come on, let me show you something." ; Some of my classmates I haven' ; t seen in fifty years. Fifty years. I have talked to some of them, but I haven' ; t seen some of them in fifty years. And I ended up in the Air Force with some of my classmates. Now that' ; s very small. Actually, a young lady named Cora Coleman, she was actually stationed with me at Travis Air Force base in California, so I say what a small world, you know? We grew up together. So some of my classmates actually got out the military and actually live in Sacramento, in the Bay Area now, so... It was a very close-knitted community. That' ; s what my grandfather -- kind of the foundation that he laid. I mean, everybody knew him. (28:00) And they knew the good for him. You know, so he helped everybody, so that was something that encouraged me to be the same way, and today I try to help people. Me and my wife, we' ; ve taken in a family in Albuquerque. We looked at ' ; em on TV, during the news when they said a family needed some help, and so we just like...adopted those kids, and they became a part of our life. And right today they actually grown kids now, they call up, " ; hi grandpa, how are you?" ; You know, and we still talk, they come to visit, and that' ; s what it' ; s all about, you know? And that' ; s one thing the military did. The military...you didn' ; t feel no racial or nothing. It' ; s always been like that, the military. It' ; s like a big family, (29:00) and we felt the closeness in the military, we could... I mean, it' ; s there. That' ; s why I love the atmosphere, that' ; s why I always -- they had to put me out. That' ; s how much I liked it, so... And it' ; s a pattern today, if people just knew how the military really operates and the closeness and the family, and what the uniform means to each other, you know? Not what some people think it does. It' ; s an atmosphere that helped people to live together, you know? And you can grow as a big family. And then me -- someone [whose] family is at home and they' ; re overseas, we take them people in, we kind of look after them. We call them up, like right today, my next door neighbor, (30:00) her husband is a warrant officer. We took to them just like that and we started watching out for ' ; em. I email them right now, when I' ; m here, and say, " ; hey, how' ; s everything going?" ; Her husband is going to leave, going overseas coming up January. I said, " ; hey, we got the girls. We' ; ll take -- you know, you need to do something..." ; But that' ; s the family life there, so it' ; s a great feeling. Nathan: Real quickly, I don' ; t wanna keep you too long ; I' ; m curious if there are other people you remember from your childhood that were kind of like your grandfather -- kind of had this big presence in the community and everybody knew them. You were mentioning teachers as well, and if there' ; s anyone who kind of comes to mind who played that kind of role. Mr. Gill: Oh yes, one guy named Mr. Leon up the street from me. He took to me. He was an Air Force guy. He was Chief Master Sergeant Air Force reserve (31:00), and I used to see him and he had a love for airplanes, and he actually built me a small plane as a kid coming up. And I used to go to his house all the time and he showed me how to... He' ; s very gifted at his hands and he made a lot of aircraft models and tools and things. And I used to listen to him a lot and that was my beginning for the Air Force there cause we used to talk all the time and he was a great person that contributed to my life. And also, I had an uncle who owned several cleaners here -- dry cleaners in Mobile -- and he actually had me working for him. And so I kind of learned the cleaning business and he tried to get me to stay around, but not me. I wanted to travel. All I' ; d seen as a little kid, I wanted to always travel, (32:00) and that was the greatest thing in my mind to do and actually get an education from the military. And that' ; s exactly what happened, so... He was a great contributor to my life, but my favorite person was my uncle who actually died in Vietnam and he was a captain in the army, but he' ; s such a leadership person and... I mean, he -- he was everything. Straight by the books. I mean, from shoe-shining to education -- getting your education and... I mean, he was by the book and he was my biggest example, and so he actually is on the wall with all the soldiers who got killed in Washington D.C. With all the -- I forget what they call (33:00) that wall there, but it was all the soldiers who got killed in Vietnam. His name is up there. But he was a great football player too for Mobile County Training School. He actually played running back and he was injured with four, five broken ribs and he wouldn' ; t be taken out the game. He continued playing, you know, he was just a hard guy. He wasn' ; t that big, but he was very...everything he set out, he accomplished. That was the bottom line. And he was a great football player. Quarterback. I actually played, and several other people -- Joe Womack. You haven' ; t had a chance to meet him yet, right? Nathan: No, we know him. We know Major Joe. Mr. Gill: Yeah, wow. Joe and myself, he' ; s some kin to me on one side, but he was a great leader,(34:00) we was very close coming up. Gary Simpson... I' ; m trying to think -- oh, Saul Smith. You' ; ll get a chance to talk to him. And several other ones, but we was pretty close. Nathan: I guess, to wrap up -- *to Ify and Santi* unless either of you two wants to jump in with something? -- I' ; m curious, you mentioned you haven' ; t seen some folks who might be here in fifty years, and so -- I don' ; t know, if you have like...things you' ; re particularly looking forward to this weekend, or...? Mr. Gill: Just to see people I hadn' ; t seen in a long time, it means a lot because this is not gonna happen again. A fifty year class reunion, because none of us gonna live forever, so... And some of the people we mentioned already that haven' ; t been fortunate enough (35:00) to be here, I miss them, and I wanted to really get a chance to see as many people as I can. Because I know this is not gonna happen again, and maybe it' ; s the beginning of some things too. To make us get together a little bit more than waiting fifty years, ten years, maybe once a year we can get together and have a little outing for the weekend and... We' ; re all retired now, so it' ; s no excuse. But I' ; m really looking forward to seeing them because I missed them for a long time. And I always wanted to come back to a reunion, which I never did until now, and I just made up my mind. I' ; m gonna be here to see them. And Anderson put a lot on people' ; s hearts in saying, " ; look, (36:00) we' ; re not gonna live forever, and we need to see each other." ; And he does not let you say " ; no" ; too much. So I appreciate him for kind of being a still the glue person, still bringing us together in closeness, and...a lot to celebrate. Nathan: I' ; m sorry, I thought of one more thing. I think that some of your teachers are going to be here this weekend as well? Mr. Gill: Yes. Nathan: I' ; m curious if... Mr. Gill: I heard that coach Arden is going to be there, and I heard that...somebody else, I think is going to be there... I hope Miss McCann will be there. She' ; s been around forever. She taught my mother, my uncles, and everyone. And so when I got to the school, she said, " ; I already know you. (37:00) You know what' ; s coming." ; She said, " ; I don' ; t want to see you in this office." ; So she kind of kept the family straight too. Coach Arden, he was the person responsible for us actually having our prom here fifty years ago. He was responsible. Because he actually -- it was during, you know, the integration and everything. A lot was going on, and he came down here and demanded. And that was successful. So I' ; m glad he' ; s here, cause we was the first class to come out of the atmosphere on our campus there and have a prom, and he' ; s come to be here. Fifty years of history. And I seen one other teacher with Ellison, probably -- I forgot...Coach...Coach Clark. (38:00) He' ; s not here now, but he was a congressman here. He actually passed away about a year ago, but I actually got a chance to see him when I was here before, a few years ago. Two or three years ago, and I' ; d seen him and I was...I felt real good. And...that' ; s about it. Nathan: Well thank you so much for your time, Mr. Gill. Yeah, I think we' ; re good. Mr. Gill: You want some more, I got it. *laughs* I' ; m just kidding. Nathan: Do you have more? Mr. Gill: No, I' ; m -- you know, that' ; s about it, just closeness and...I appreciate what you all are doing. And this means a lot down the line that maybe one day my kids can see all this. My grandkids. And actually understand about the history of the school. Just for the school to be there at all (39:00) and it was the first Black -- I mean, African American school in the state of Alabama, so...that' ; s a lot of history there. So I appreciate what you all have done to help serve this history and to...you know, it' ; s not easy coming somewhere after Thanksgiving, but were you here? Nathan: No, we came in this morning. Mr. Gill: Oh, okay. But I just want to say thank you to you guys. Nathan: Thank you. Mr. Gill (Addendum 6/24/2020): To sum it up, it' ; s a pleasure to gather and assist to pass on the history for years to come, to let the younger generation to come, to let them know that MCTS was the oldest and first black school in the state of Alabama. It contributed a lot of history. It' ; s called Mobile County Training high School because it was a training school that provided everything a person needed to start in life. We had some great teachers and principles that passed through. All of my family passed through MCTS, my mother, father, aunts, etc. I appreciate the fact that you all are helping to prepare and reserve this history. video 0 https://oberlincollegelibrary.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=A_Horace_Gill.xml A_Horace_Gill.xml
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Horace Gill
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Nathan Carpenter
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Don Coleman
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5.4 Unknown Date Don Coleman 00:42:00 Africatown January 2023 Oberlin College Library Don Coleman Nathan Carpenter 1:|11(3)|16(10)|27(8)|33(12)|41(11)|49(3)|60(12)|67(5)|77(10)|84(1)|95(9)|103(12)|110(3)|116(3)|122(6)|127(16)|134(5)|141(6)|148(9)|158(6)|170(4)|176(9)|183(18)|189(5)|195(5)|200(7)|206(15)|217(4)|228(3)|236(8)|245(13)|251(15)|264(4)|270(15)|280(2)|291(5)|296(5)|302(13)|311(12)|318(10)|329(4)|339(15) 0 https://youtu.be/aOdD3VfTe0s YouTube video 0 Reunion of Mobile County Training Students Over the years we have gone in so many different directions and still a lot of the… my, I guess, source, a lot of the motivation and energy emanates from that tie with going to Mobile County Training School so there’s like a continuing connection that doesn’t go away. Coleman discusses the reunion of the students that have attended Mobile County Training School. He hopes to reconnect with peers from his time attending the school. Mobile Country Training School ; Reunion Education ; Mobile County Training School 128 Coming in from the Outside From there, that was the beginning of my connection. It probably was a lot more positive than other communities I’ve been in. A lot of my friends were in home that both parents were in and so I sort of patched together role models from them and through them there and bonded with them, friends that I still stay in touch with from time to time, through the phone. Coleman talks about his experience moving to Africatown and the strong and positive impact that living in the town had left whilst growing up. Africatown ; Mobile ; New-York ; Public-Housing ; Role Models ; Single-Parent ; Virginia Africatown ; Community ; Mobile County Training School ; Moving to Africatown ; School 373 Community So going, moving to Happy Hill first was the first sense of stability, place we could afford and we know that next week at least we’d still have a place. And when I started going to school there I met people like Anderson Flen and Gary Simpson and they were kind of the leaders in that class and in that school. Coleman recalls the connections he had made with classmates in Mobile County Training School. Anderson Flenn ; Gary Simpson ; Happy-Hill ; School Africatown ; Community ; Connection ; Flenn, Anderson ; Happy Hill ; School ; Simpson, Gary 645 Role Models So, Charles Harding was probably one of the, my biggest role model, he was a paratrooper in the army and then he came- well, first of all, football star at county then he was a paratrooper in the army, and then he was the - wasn’t the head football coach but he was defensive coach and baseball coach. And he was very… intimidating but very fair. He expected you to do your best and would let you know when you wouldn’t. And when we, you know, and he would reward when you done your best Coleman talks about the role models within his time at school that helped him throughout his time there. Academics ; Baseball ; Charles Harding ; Charles Rhodes ; Coach ; Football ; Mr. Chapman ; Role-Models ; Statistician Harding, Charles ; Mr.Chapman ; Rhodes, Charles ; Role-Models ; School ; Sport Coaches 854 Counselor Inspired College Path .. She was responsible for getting me into that and that opened my eyes to college, and really motivated me to want to go to college. And I worked hard, but- actually it was my sophomore year that I got into the program- but I worked hard my junior and senior year. Coleman recalls his school counselor, Ms. Valeena McCans, who had helped him get into Clark University. Clark College ; College ; Ms. Valeena McCans ; SAT ; Upward Bound College ; McCans Valeena ; SAT ; Upward Bound 1012 Chitlin Circuit Chitlin Circuit, you had performers like James Brown, B.B. King, Tina Turner, they came to what- the Chitlin Circuit would be something that, it was a tour from, that started in Detroit, came through Chicago, down to New Orleans, Mobile, Atlanta, so it’s all the cities where there were significant Black populations and they performed in clubs, in nightclubs. Coleman talks about his mother and her job at a club during Chitlin Circuit. He also mentions her pursual of a nursing degree. Chitlin Circuit ; Clark College ; Nursing Chitlin Circuit ; College ; Nursing 1216 Attending Clark Atlanta University There, you, at Clark there was- you learned there was a whole first world, people from as far as New York, Chicago, Detroit, California, they came to the Atlanta University and a lot of things were happening at that time. Civil rights, the student movement and the civil rights era was pretty- it was growing and probably that was the first, student involvement was at its peak Coleman talks about his experience moving to Atlanta, Georgia to attend Clark Atlanta University. In addition to this Coleman discusses student movements and his participation. Atlanta ; Civil Rights ; College ; Marching ; Southern Georgia ; Student Movements ; Students Atlanta ; Civil Rights ; Participation ; Student Movements ; Students 1351 Student Activism We had at that time, the civil rights movement had some charismatic leaders like Hosea Williams, Andrew Young, they were all based in Atlanta and so that was, I was exposed to that and so it was motivating and I felt that it was making a difference and so they showed courage, which helped us to have courage Coleman discusses segregation in Mobile, Alabama and his participation in student activism in Georgia. Jim Crow ; Leaders ; March ; Mobile ; School ; Students Civil Rights ; Equality ; Jim Crow ; Leaders ; Mobile, Alabama ; School ; Segregation ; Student Activism 1725 After College And so I went, completed the law school, took the Georgia bar, and at the- probably halfway through my law school I had gotten a legal assistant job with Atlanta Legal Aid, and when I passed the bar, I got offered a staff attorney position at Atlanta Legal Aid. And that was in 19… 77 was when I passed the bar and got the offer shortly after I passed. Coleman discusses his experiences in Atlanta and his life after graduating. After college, Coleman pursued his law degree and got a position as a Legal Assistant in Atlanta Legal Aid. Atlanta ; Atlanta Legal Aid ; Career ; Economics ; Georgia Bar ; Greyhound Company ; Law School ; Legal Aid ; Legal Assistant ; Mobile ; Opportunity ; Social Work ; South ; Student Atlanta, Georgia ; Economic ; Greyhound Company ; Jobs and Opportunities ; Law School 1924 Career in Social Justice Yes. It was not, it was not from a material standpoint a rich community. It was a hard working community. And there were some wonderful people there. And a lot of the clients that I work with legal aid are in similar low income working, they’re the working poor. And I relate to them in the sense that that is the place that I came from and it’s a place that I wanted to lift up and give back to. Coleman discusses his motivation for going to law school and the connection it has when he was living in Africatown. Civil Rights Movement ; Community ; Justice ; Law School ; Legal aid ; Participation ; Social Justice ; Student Activism ; Civil Rights Movement ; Community ; Law ; Social Justice 2159 Community in Africatown But a lot of the, my friends’ family would me into their home, they would, you know, feed me, and they treated me no different than their children. So, you know and I would get along with one kid and I’d get along with their brother but that’s different. Coleman talks about friendships within the community and the closeness that there was between each other. Anderson Flen ; Community ; Community Kid ; Family ; Friends ; Network ; School ; Weekend Anderson, Flen ; Community ; Family ; Friendship ; Network Oral History 0:00 Carpenter: Okay. Great, so I' ; m Nathan Carpenter with Oberlin College I' ; m here with Ify Ezimora also from Oberlin College and Mr. Don Coleman, who' ; s going to be giving an oral history interview today as part of the Africatown Oral History Digital Archive, so the collaboration between MEJAC and the Mobile County Training School Alumni Association. I just want to state at the beginning that Mr. Coleman' ; s participation in the interview is 100% voluntary and that you' ; re welcome to decline to answer any questions or to stop the interview at any time. And so with that, I guess I' ; d like to start with kind of-- asking what this reunion means to you, what you' ; re looking forward to this weekend. 0:57 Coleman: It' ; s-- I guess it would be, connect. Reconnect with people that I had central ties with in the school and in the community. Over the years we have gone in so many different directions and still a lot of the-- my, I guess, source, a lot of the motivation and energy emanates from that tie with going to Mobile County Training School so there' ; s like a continuing connection that doesn' ; t go away. So it' ; s time to see where- I guess to kind of gauge where I' ; m at and also where everybody else is. 2:07 Carpenter: And so were you, did you attend the prom that was here, the class of ' ; 68? 2:13 Coleman: I did not. I was in many ways an outlier to some degree cause I stumbled across this community. I was born in Virginia, in Western Virginia and I came here from New York when I was probably about 7 or 8. And my mother, who was a single parent was born in Mobile and she attended Mobile County Training School as well. And, single parent there were struggles so, especially, particularly in New York and then we ended up coming back to Mobile, or she returned to Mobile and I was introduced to Mobile. It was- particularly being in Africatown was-- my initial connection was when I was probably about 14 or 15, cause I had attended other schools in the Mobile area and like I said, we had- it was me and my mother, there were financial challenges so we mainly lived either with relatives or we lived in boarding houses. My, when I was about 14 my mother became eligible for public housing and there was an area in Africatown right adjacent to it called the Happy Hills, and so it was a public project. I don' ; t know- I think there' ; s been some renovation out in that area so I don' ; t know whether the original project is still there. That was the first place we had a fairly stable home and it happened to be in Happy Hill, which was adjacent to the Africatown- Africatown. From there, that was the beginning of my connection. It probably was a lot more positive than other communities I' ; ve been in. A lot of my friends were in homes that both parents were in and so I sort of patched together role models from them and through them there and bonded with them, friends that I still stay in touch with from time to time, through the phone. That was the beginning because there were role models in the community while I didn' ; t have any male role models, there were male role models in the community and in the school that I could draw my self-image and develop it, and friendship with the children. So, that to say no I didn' ; t go to the prom because it was most of the kids there grew up and went to kindergarten, they went to first grade, elementary school together. And they were well bonded so I kind had to, kinda come from the outside and become part of the community. So it took them time to bond, and I went to some other proms but not to that one. (laughing) 6:12 Carpenter: Can you talk more about what that experience was like, kind of coming in from the outside, cause you also mentioned that it was a really positive community. 6:20 Coleman: Yeah, it was because literally, we lived in boarding houses and people from all different kind of backgrounds, mostly suspect and unstable backgrounds were there and there was a lot of sensitivity and security issues, living from week to week as far as whether you would be there the next week. So going, moving to Happy Hills first was the first sense of stability, place we could afford and we know that next week at least we' ; d still have a place. And when I started going to school there I met people like Anderson Flen and Gary Simpson and they were kind of the leaders in that class and in that school. Anderson was the prototypical big man on campus, he was the star quarterback and he was star baseball player, so it was fortuitous that I bonded with him and from there I got more connection with the community. It sort of was a.. Endorsement, hey this guy' ; s okay. So I got to, you know, spend time with his family, I got to spend the night, I had dinner, we would go around the neighborhood, I mean the neighborhood was probably five miles in radius, we walked everywhere so I got, through him I got to know a lot of the kids that I would not have known as soon, because of his stature. 8:33 Carpenter: And what was that experience kind of like, as high schoolers kind of walking around the neighborhood? You know, what kind of things would you do, who' ; d you talk to, that kind of thing. 8:48 Coleman: It would... it would be-- I guess the other way that I got in was that I could learn things pretty quick and so, a lot of my interaction was, ok, I' ; ll show you how to do this, this is what she said, here are my notes and stuff like that. And helped people with preparation for exams and things like that, so I had that kind of collateral to, I guess, negotiate with. And it can be- my mother and I were a household of two, it was the average household in that community was 4, 4 or 5, some of them had like 11 kids. So it could be kind of daunting, you know, they were well-bonded, so you always knew that you, while you could get close, you' ; re not as close as the family. So it was, I always viewed myself as the outlier and I could socialize and communicate effectively and develop a relationship, but it was always a question of degree. It would never be the bond that they would have but it was comfortable, and for me it was better than what I' ; d had in the past. 10:45 Carpenter: I' ; m curious, one thing you mentioned is about the role models you found in the community and I was wondering if your comfortable talking about who some of those people were for you. 10:56 Coleman: Yeah, I don' ; t have any problem. The biggest male role model were the coaches, the football, baseball coaches. 11:13 Carpenter: Were you on both teams? 11:15 Coleman: I was not on the football team, I was a statistician on the baseball team. That was my way in, more of an academic connection. Now I would play, coming up we would play tackle football in, here in the park and we' ; d play baseball so I played with the, but not in the organized sense. So, Charles Harding was probably one of the, my biggest role model, he was a paratrooper in the army and then he came- well, first of all, football star at county then he was a paratrooper in the army, and then he was the - wasn' ; t the head football coach but he was defensive coach and baseball coach. And he was very-- intimidating but very fair. He expected you to do your best and would let you know when you wouldn' ; t. And when we, you know, and he would reward when you done your best. So, and he was- he stayed in shape, he was athletic up to his maybe 50' ; s, 60' ; s. So he was a very impressive personality. And then the head coach, Charles Rhodes, that R-H-O-D-E-S, he was the president in the sense that, he was the head football coach but there was a lot of-- he was probably the most academic of the personalities that I had in football, two civic courses, and it was very engaging academically, and I was impressed with him. And, let' ; s see, Mr. Chapman, he also was talented academically, motivated me in his class. I took about two classes from him. And then there was a counselor, she was a female, Valeena (14:23), Ms. Valeena McCans and you probably, people either love her or hate her but she was probably the person that, I mean I really didn' ; t think about college until maybe my junior year, late junior year. I went to this program, she was responsible for getting me into a college preparatory program, summer program, called Upward Bound. And from there I, I mean I' ; ve always been, I love to read and I love to debate, so it was instinctive but it was not a-- I didn' ; t see a future in it. And that experience, she was responsible for getting me into that and that opened my eyes to college, and really motivated me to want to go to college. And I worked hard, but- actually it was my sophomore year that I got into the program- but I worked hard my junior and senior year. Before that I was pretty average, I was better than- I was average and sometimes better than average when I had a real interest in the subject. But after that experience, I committed more intensely to developing my academics and ended up in my senior year, I had the highest SAT score in the history of the school and she had a lot to do with that, I mean, she kept me on task and exposed me to, she helped me through the application process. Cause my mother, basically, she worked hard but it was not- it was more labor intensive and she worked at a club, it was basically- I don' ; t know if you' ; ve heard of the Chitlin Circuit? You should google the Chitlin Circuit but, through the Chitlin- Chitlin Circuit, you had performers like James Brown, B.B. King, Tina Turner, they came to what- the Chitlin Circuit would be something that, it was a tour from, that started in Detroit, came through Chicago, down to New Orleans, Mobile, Atlanta, so it' ; s all the cities where there were significant Black populations and they performed in clubs, in nightclubs. My mother worked as a waitress at one of the clubs- at the only club in Mobile that was part of the Chitlin Circuit. But it' ; s pretty historical cause a lot of your blues icons and rhythm- rhythm and blues icons came through that circuit. But anyway, she did not, I mean she had like one year of college but she didn' ; t finish. When I got through my senior year and graduated, I got a full scholarship to Clark College in Atlanta, she went back to school and she came out with a nursing degree. So, a lot of good things happened from my having attended school in that community. 19:02 Carpenter: So it sounds like a lot of your mentorship you found through the school, is that right? 19:11 Coleman: Oh, definitely. There were, the students there were pretty close, bonded, families, probably their parents had bonded as classmates the generation before so there was a really tight community bond there and basically, you were raised by the community cause if something happened on this side that you did, eventually everybody would know. And there would be those that would step in and say " ; no, don' ; t do that." ; So it was, in a sense, a pretty open community. 20:09 Carpenter: So then, you- Clark College, is that what you said? 20:12 Coleman: Yeah, it was- it' ; s Clark Atlanta. Clark Atlanta University. 20:16 Carpenter: Clark Atlanta University. What was that like? 20:19 Coleman: It was a whole new world. Cause Atlanta, about a couple years after Atlanta exploded. The counselor, Ms. McCans, she was- I had gotten scholarship offers from Tuskegee, Billard, Talladega, and Clark College and, I was undecided as to where I wanted to go and she helped, she led me to qualify for full scholarship. But Atlanta is a place that is going to grow, and when I started at Clark it was about the same time Atlanta really, it started blossoming from a- it was always a big southern town but it exploded into a city, you know. There, you, at Clark there was- you learned there was a whole first world, people from as far as New York, Chicago, Detroit, California, they came to the Atlanta University and a lot of things were happening at that time. Civil rights, the student movement and the civil rights era was pretty- it was growing and probably that was the first, student involvement was at its peak. And we did, we did the marching and did some bus riding to some areas in southern Georgia, so it was a really exciting, challenging time. 22:35 Carpenter: Yeah what was that like, kind of participating in those student movements? 22:39 Coleman: It - I would say it, our- in a way it was unique in the sense that it was driven by the students and the, well, when- from my perspective, it was a liberating time because when I went, when I came- I came from New York to Mobile. I had no idea about Jim Crow, didn' ; t know anything about riding on the bus, didn' ; t know about separate entrances, separate drinking water fountains, until I hit Mobile and that was like a brick wall. And I basically had to have a guide to say, when my grandmother visited had to be the person to teach me socially you don' ; t wanna do that, you gotta do this. And it always was irritating because I couldn' ; t do what I was used to you know, the equal footing. And my grandmother was a, she was a maid for private homes and there were times when she would come home and she worked for, she worked for this woman who was in her thirties and my grandmother was in her fifties, and she would come home so many times, just hurt sometimes in the way how she was spoken to, how she was treated. And that stayed with me a good while. So when I got to Atlanta and I met other people that had different experiences that were more equalizing, it was like I had stepped into another world and we - we had at that time, the civil rights movement had some charismatic leaders like Hosea Williams, Andrew Young, they were all based in Atlanta and so that was, I was exposed to that and so it was motivating and I felt that it was making a difference and so they showed courage, which helped us to have courage. So we would go on these, we would go to South Georgia, there was- a lot of times they had to do with someone' ; s wrongfully imprisoned. And we would go and we would march and it would be frightening but at the same time knowing that you had so many people that believed the same thing you did, it was encouraging at the same time. So I was glad that I had the opportunity to- to live and attend school at that time and have that experience. 27:13 Coleman: Were you in touch with any of your Mobile County Training School Classmates during that time? 27:19 Coleman: Flen. Probably has been the main connection for probably the majority of people that are here today, this weekend for the reunion. To me it was more, he was a surrogate brother because it was- I was the only child for most of the time until I went to college. And he, I stayed in touch with him from the moment he went to Virginia to school and we stayed in touch and then he moved to Atlanta and we have always maintained contact. And there' ; s a couple people from Mobile that when I come back I would make sure I would look them up and get in contact with either them or their parents, cause a lot of times they' ; d be out somewhere out of Mobile but the parents, siblings stay in direct contact with each other. 28:49 Carpenter: So you decided to stay in Atlanta? After college. 28:53 Coleman: Yeah, I wanted to stay south and Atlanta was an oasis. 29:00 Carpenter: In what way? 29:02 Coleman: In as far as career opportunity and personal growth. I, when I graduated- here, my junior year I had a friend who was a couple years ahead of me, he had went to Alabama State, graduated with good credentials, and he applied for a job in Mobile at the Greyhound company and he was a college graduate, and the only thing they offered him was a maintenance job. And that convinced me, I wanna stay south but not wanna go back there. And so Atlanta was, Atlanta really was boomin' ; in the seventies and even more today and still is, in different aspects. 30:08 Carpenter: So what was kind of your career trajectory? 30:13 Coleman: I was a, like most students I changed my major a couple times. I went in as a psychologist major and I switched to sociology, and then at the end of my four years I counted up- I ended up with a diploma- a degree in economics. So I worked with the US Labor Department for about... year and a half but at the same time I was going to night law school. And so I went, completed the law school, took the Georgia bar, and at the- probably halfway through my law school I had gotten a legal assistant job with Atlanta Legal Aid, and when I passed the bar, I got offered a staff attorney position at Atlanta Legal Aid. And that was in 19-- 77 was when I passed the bar and got the offer shortly after I passed. And I' ; ve been there since then. I currently am co-manager of their, the county office. I guess in certain ways I still do social work but in the legal context. 32:02 Carpenter: Yeah, what pulled you to go to law school and do the work that you do? 32:08 Coleman: Well, I can' ; t- it was, growing up in the community that I did- 32:19 Carpenter: And do you mean Africatown? 32:21 Coleman: Yes. It was not, it was not from a material standpoint a rich community. It was a hard-working community. And there were some wonderful people there. And a lot of the clients that I work with legal aid are in similar low income working, they' ; re the working poor. And I relate to them in the sense that that is the place that I came from and it' ; s a place that I wanted to lift up and give back to. I also, probably during my most impressionable years, John F. Kennedy became president. And the most memorable thing I remember was, it' ; s not what your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country, to paraphrase that. And I took that to heart. And I always looked at law school as being a way to improve social justice, but in a more empowering way. Because as a social worker you give people food to live for a day but it doesn' ; t give people- feel a sense of empowerment that there is justice. I think that' ; s-- significant. 34:11 Carpenter: And you feel like that' ; s tied at all to your- the work you did during the Civil Rights Movement in college? Tied to that work for social justice? 34:21 Coleman: Yeah, and the role I also had because, but for the grace of God I could be in that working poor population. And the, you know our most valuable resource is our human resources and the more you can improve that the more you improve your community. So it' ; s a, it' ; s really was a, maybe a frustrated social worker, I mean from a legal standpoint. But that was, once I got into law I knew I didn' ; t want a job where I had to chase the dollar, I wanted to be able to make a difference in people lives even if it' ; s just for that moment, and that was a way to do it. And I, and I think it' ; s a... continuation of the work that I did when I was a student at Clark College and the participation that I had in the Civil Rights Movement. 35:39 Carpenter: You keep returning to this idea of the community within Africatown and how strong that was, I was wondering if you could think of just, a story that kind of shows what that experience was like for you? 35:57 Coleman: Well, I, my mother was a single working parent. And I was a teenager, active and adventurous, and rebellious. That some point in time happens with everyone. The, my mother would go to work. She' ; d go to work at 7 in the evening and she' ; d come home maybe 4 in the morning. So I would have full run of the house or the community during that time. A lot of times I would go to my friend' ; s house, have dinner there. I can' ; t think of the number of times I spent the night over at Anderson' ; s house. I was probably the poster child for latchkey, but I could kind of, I would go out and -- (laughs) that' ; s a different story. But a lot of the, my friends' ; family would welcome me into their home, they would, you know, feed me, and they treated me no different than their children. So, you know and I would get along with one kid and I' ; d get along with their brother but that' ; s different. But it was a common place for me because I probably was not the normal-- my family was not the normal family in that community. There usually were two parents and I had a unique experience, you' ; ll probably see as stories go. 38:30 Carpenter: And you said you' ; d slept sometimes at school? Is that what you said? 38:32 Coleman: Well, I mean, I definitely got home before my mom got home. I would go, like I would go to Flen' ; s house and stay a couple days late, and then I would come home by the time my mom got home. And I would, sometimes I would, you know, I came from, I had relatives in other parts of the city. I would go- if I had a bike, which I did for most of the time, I would ride 20 miles to the other side of town and spend the evening there and then come back. But mainly, as I got older I got more friends in the community and I stayed around that community for the last two years of school. But it was, there probably was a network for me of about a dozen families that I could drop by their house and play and hang around until dinnertime and have dinner. It was a, I probably was a community kid. (laughs) So that' ; s why I value that community experience. 40:15 Carpenter: I don' ; t wanna take up too much of your time so I don' ; t know if there' ; s anything you wanna add, anything we' ; ve talked about, anything about the weekend-- anything more generally... 40:25 Coleman: Well it' ; s gonna be, it' ; s kinda like you' ; ve been on a long journey now you wanna see who made it back, what they' ; re doing. So I-- I' ; m going to relish cause I don' ; t know how many other times we' ; ll have the opportunity but I' ; m gonna relish the weekend, and connect up and communicate with as many people as I can, just it' ; s-- it' ; s kind of like reconciling your present perception with your memory. So i' ; m gonna spend that time, trying just to reconcile, get a balanced perspective. Because when we graduated our perspective is totally different from what we have now. So it' ; ll be good just to catch up with people. 41:34 Carpenter: Is that bringing up stuff for you too, in terms of reconciling, you know, where you' ; re at now versus where you were 50 years ago? 41:41 Coleman: Yeah. Yeah. It sort of-- sort of a review in sense, you know. 41:56 Carpenter: Cool. Alright, well thank you so much for your time this was awesome. 41:58 Coleman: My pleasure. video 0 https://oberlincollegelibrary.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=A_Don_Coleman.xml A_Don_Coleman.xml
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Don Coleman
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Nathan Carpenter
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Beatrice Morse
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5.4 Beatrice Morse 47:36 Africatown January 2023 Oberlin College Library Beatrice Morse Nathan Carpenter 1:|15(2)|26(11)|36(4)|45(9)|56(8)|67(10)|79(16)|93(3)|102(7)|110(3)|119(2)|129(10)|137(11)|149(9)|162(4)|169(13)|179(2)|190(1)|203(13)|214(6)|223(12)|237(6)|248(5)|259(5)|269(2)|286(13)|295(16)|304(13)|312(16)|324(11)|337(2)|351(5)|359(12)|368(9)|377(1)|387(6)|396(2)|404(14)|414(11)|428(17)|438(10)|451(11)|465(13)|474(9)|481(3)|490(6)|501(15) 0 https://youtu.be/O1s-Nmx54BY YouTube video 44 Black Education in Mobile But at the time, there was no high school in Prichard to African American children. So we had the choice to go either to Mobile Country Training School which was in Plateau - that’s what we called it, Africatown, it’s in Africatown- and downtown Mobile there was a Dunbar High School but there was some confusion with the system and the schools with regard to the feeder patterns. Morse talks about her and her siblings' school path from Ella Grant to Mobile County Training School. Africatown ; Central High School ; Dunbar High School ; Ella Grant School ; Freshman ; MCTS ; Mr. Baker ; Primer Childhood ; Education. ; Family. ; Mobile (Ala.) ; Mobile County Training School ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) ; Prichard (Ala.) 288 Segregation and Bussing to MCTS So, I’m simply saying I didn’t find any difference in the children who lived in Africatown or Whistler or whatever, our differences came more just with who you chose to be your friend. Morse talks about the different, far-away neighborhoods that kids came from and the bus rides to get to Mobile County Training School. Buses ; Colloquial ; Dalton Robertson ; Highway 45 ; MCTS ; Mount Vernon ; Saraland ; Satsuma ; School ; Transportation ; Walking ; Whistler Childhood. ; Education. ; Mobile County Training School ; Prichard (Ala.) ; Segregation. 591 Path in Higher Education I got a Bachelor’s from Alabama State University, I forgot to mention that- I have never had to take a backseat academically, I don’t care what school I was in. Morse talks about her experience in higher education institutions, undergraduate and graduate, and how Ella Grant and MCTS set her up for success. Alberta Davies ; Bachelor's ; Ella Grant School ; English grammar ; Esther Picket Lang ; Graduate degrees ; Illinois ; Master's Degree ; MCTS ; Microscope ; Teaching certificate ; undergraduate Alabama State University ; Biology. ; Education. ; Illinois Wesleyan University ; Mathematics. ; Mobile County Training School ; PhD degree ; Student ; Teacher ; University of Alabama 790 Experience at MCTS So outstanding academicians were who we had for teachers. Not only were they good and smart academically, the whole demeanor around education when I came up was everybody needs to get an education and everybody is going to respect the teachers or the deliverers, whoever is givin’ it to you, you’re gonna respect them, you’re gonna do what they say to do. Morse talks about the atmosphere at MCTS, including athletic rivalries and outstanding teachers. athletic ; Central High School ; outstanding ; Principal ; Respect ; rivalry ; Whippets Education. ; Football. ; Learning. ; Mobile County Training School ; Student ; Teacher 984 Academic Achievement Despite Poverty But I just know that there are so many people who have achieved, in my opinion, significantly, who came from what we today call “poverty stricken”- all of us, I was poverty stricken for sure. I didn’t know what poverty was, but I was poverty stricken. We didn’t have any- nobody bought our books ; the state didn’t buy out books. Morse talks about how schools didn't provide books, so she studied the books that her older siblings passed down to her. achieve ; Books ; chemistry ; Dillard ; homework ; Mobile Public Schools ; Poverty ; Poverty Stricken ; scientist ; Textbooks Alabama State University ; Childhood ; Education. ; Family. ; Mathematics. ; Student ; Teacher 1180 Disciplined in School And I’m old fashioned enough now to believe that anybody who disciplined you loved you and tried to make you do better. Morse tells a story about how her teachers reacted when she got in a fight in class. Corporal Punishment ; Discipline ; fight ; spanking Education. ; Mobile County Training School ; Stories. ; Student ; Teacher 1333 Hope Store We would maybe be out at PE or somewhere, and the kids would give those little kids a nickel through the fence cause we weren’t allowed to go off campus, to go to that Hope Store- it was no more than three houses over and bring them a cookie or something back with their money. Morse talks about the store near MCTS campus, but not being able to leave to get a cookie. Africatown ; Bus ; geography ; Hope Store ; nickel ; obedient ; Prichard ; Stores ; Turner Road ; Whitley Education. ; Mobile County Training School ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) ; Stories. 1507 Importance of Education in Family It never occurred to me that I was poor and that I was not going to school and that I was not going to college. I mean, goin’ to school was what you did until you got a degree in my family. Morse talks about how her mother's childhood set up the importance of education in her family. 1953 ; Bishop State Community College ; college educated ; Country ; critical ; Frankville ; I.J Whitley ; poor ; routine ; Selma ; Yearbook Alabama State University ; Biology. ; Education. ; Family. ; GED ; Mathematics. ; Mobile (Ala.) ; Mobile County Training School ; Teacher 1841 Career as a Teacher But as it turns out teaching has been the most rewarding experience I could ever have. Because I love children and I think that I did some children some good, I don’t know. I know that I’ve had experiences where people tell me they could never do math well until I helped ‘em with it. Morse talks about her career as an educator in Mobile Public Schools and at Spring Hill College. Educational psychology, research and statistics ; Master's Degree ; Mobile Public Schools ; Upward Bound program Biology. ; Education. ; Mathematics. ; Nursing. ; PhD degree ; Scholarship ; Spring Hill College ; Teacher ; Teacher education ; Tuskegee Institute. 2276 Keeping in Touch But what we do even now, if any of the classmates in this book come to Mobile, Alabama from wherever they live, we get together and have lunch or something, breakfast or something. Morse talks about keeping in touch with her classmates from MCTS and participating on the board of the Alumni Association. alumni ; Alumni Association ; Board ; Merit ; Mobile Public Schools ; reunion ; yearbook Classmates ; Mobile (Ala.) ; Mobile County Training School ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) ; Retirement ; Teacher ; Volunteer 2476 Exodus from Africatown I was born in Prichard but most people who were born here don’t live here anymore. My sister and I live here but all four of my siblings, my brothers left. Morse talks about how people from the area often leave for their careers and do not return to the community. Africatown ; leaving ; physical deterioration Community. ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) ; Prichard (Ala.) 2572 Heritage in Africatown Every year we had to recite a poem and most of the poets were Black. Every year we had to attend what they called a cultural event down at the Theater and most of the performers were Black. So, we got that kind of Black heritage, so to speak. Morse talks about learning Black history and heritage in school, and emphasizes the important relationships that MCTS built within the community. Africatown ; Black history ; Cudjo ; Cudjoe ; Doris Allen Lee ; Ella Grant School ; heritage ; John Smith ; MCTS ; poetry ; seatmate Classmates ; Clotilda (Ship) ; Education. ; Family. ; History. ; Lewis, Cudjo ; Mobile County Training School ; Prichard (Ala.) ; Relationships. ; Student ; Teacher Oral History Carpenter: This is Nathan Carpenter with Oberlin College, I' ; m here with Ify Ezimora and Kaylee Elliott, both also from Oberlin college and we' ; re here with Ms. Beatrice Morse, who has agreed to be interviewed for the Africatown Oral History Archive Project. It' ; s January 7th 2019, 5:25pm and we' ; re in Mobile Alabama, or just outside of Mobile Alabama and I just want to clarify on the recording that Ms. Morse, you are welcome to decline to answer any questions that you' ; d like and that your participation in this project is voluntary so if at any point you' ; d like to stop you are free to do so. Morse: Okay. Carpenter: So I guess I just wanna start with, you said you' ; re originally from Prichard Morse: I was born in a portion of Prichard that was at that time called Bull' ; s Head but it is a part of the incorporated area of Prichard now. Carpenter: And so you began to go to Mobile County Training School at what age? Morse: Oh, I started at Ella Grant School in Prichard and I went there from grade, what we call primer, I guess that' ; s what we call kindergarten now, to grade seven. Those are the grades that I completed there. But at the time, there was no high school in Prichard to African American children. So we had the choice to go either to Mobile Country Training School which was in Plateau - that' ; s what we called it, Africatown, it' ; s in Africatown- and downtown Mobile there was a Dunbar High School but there was some confusion with the system and the schools with regard to the feeder patterns. Dunbar had the tenth, eleventh, and twelfth grades only. As I understand it, I didn' ; t go there. Mobile County Training School had what they call the eighth, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth. I' ; m sure you have heard that from somebody in your previous. Now, that did not mean that we didn' ; t go to the same number of grades because the elementary schools that fed to Mobile County Training School did not have a primer, or a kindergarten- I guess you would call it kindergarten now but I went at six years old to Ella Grant School and at six years old was the only time you could go, I went to primer and I went to Ella Grant School through seventh grade. When we got ready to go to high school if we had gone- we couldn' ; t go to Dunbar. They didn' ; t have an eighth- they didn' ; t have a freshman class to put it the way, in our vernacular today. So we went to Mobile County Training School for the freshman year and my mother actually wanted us to go to Central, I' ; m sorry- well, it was called Central about that time, they changed it from Dunbar. You guys should- I forget the history but Dunbar became Central High School and my mother wanted me and my brother who' ; s just one year older than I to go there too. But because the older brothers had started out at County and when Mr. Baker went to then Central High School and it was, used to be Dunbar, my mother forced them to go with that school. Now she wanted us to go to that same school because she had the greatest of respect for Dr. Baker. And we had school loyalty, we had to go to County one year. So after we went that one year we didn' ; t wanna go the other three years down there. So we pleaded and she let us stay there. But all of my mother' ; s children attended at least three years. My older brothers went three years and went to... Central at that time, but it was the Mobile school. And my second brother went three years and my younger brother who' ; s just a year older than I all went four- we went all four years over there. I know that doesn' ; t make any sense to you. (laughs) Carpenter: It' ; s all good, all good info. Can you talk a little bit about what your experience was like as a student at Mobile County Training School, what it was like to go there particularly, I guess, for someone who- who didn' ; t live in Plateau or Africatown? Morse: Well, I don' ; t guess I had any special or particular different feeling. I didn' ; t have any choice. School was school, you know you- I actually was a very young child. I completed my grades primer through seventh and I actually might have been eleven years old - I went to Mobile County Training School- let me back it out. I graduated at fifteen. So fourteen, thirteen, twelve, eleven. So I went to Mobile County Training School at eleven years old. I didn' ; t- I mean, school was just school. I was gonna go somewhere for sure and that was where we had to go. We didn' ; t really have a lot of choices. I found the kids were probably a lot less colloquial than they are now. You know, I didn' ; t find any difference in those of us who came from Africatown cause a lotta kids came from Saraland, a lotta kids came from Satsuma, Mount Vernon. I don' ; t know if you know the geography here, but Mount Vernon is thirty miles from here. Because there were no schools for African Americans except these. So, I' ; m simply saying I didn' ; t find any difference in the children who lived in Africatown or Whistler or whatever, our differences came more just with who you chose to be your friend. Carpenter: So you' ; re talking about how some- some students had to travel thirty miles because the school system was segregated- Morse: Absolutely. There' ; s a young man who' ; s- he' ; s still alive, he' ; s- he was a judge. He was an attorney then he became a judge up in the North somewhere, his name is Dalton Robertson, he was in my class. He had to come from Mount Vernon every day. Carpenter: Some of the folks that we' ; ve talked to have talked about they also came from, you know, Prichard or Satsuma or some of these other places and they described having to, you know, go by the white schools that were closer to their house on the way. Morse: All of us did that. And the transportation was horrific. We were very poor but there was no free busing for anyone. I do recall that early on, they had what we call the special bus it was dedicated just to taking kids from areas then over- I don' ; t know if they did for Mount Vernon and all those, they did for Prichard. I don' ; t think they did for Mount Vernon or Whistler or some of those other places, I don' ; t know for sure but those buses were dedicated, meaning nobody else got on that bus with us and they didn' ; t have to make any stops to pick up anybody else. They had special places where they were gonna pick you up, and they were goin' ; straight to Mobile County Training School. But- and the price was a little bit different. I think regular busfare might' ; a been a dime, we had to pay a nickel. (laughing) So, that tells you how old I am! But, uh, if you missed that bus- and I missed it a lotta times, I had to hump over. From down Highway 45- you see where I am now up off of Highway 45 but down Highway 45 about three miles, I had to hump all the way over to Plateau. I had to walk past kids who were riding a bus to their school, and who would throw spitballs out at you, out of their bus and I started before them, they got on the bus after me- distance wise- then they got off the bus before I got to where I was goin' ; . If you understand what I' ; m tryin' ; to say. But that was the status quo, I mean, if you ask me now how I felt, it was just normal. But certainly when you look back, as I look back now, we all know that it was not the right thing to do but school was school. I loved going to Mobile County Training School. And I learned a lot there. I will tell you now that I have two graduate degrees, I have a Master' ; s degree from Illinois Wesleyan University in Bloomington, Illinois and I have a PhD degree from the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa. I got there late because when I wanted to go to the University of Alabama I was not allowed to go. But I have never had to - I got a Bachelor' ; s from Alabama State University, I forgot to mention that- I have never had to take a backseat academically, I don' ; t care what school I was in. The only time I felt a difference in my education was when I first went to Illinois Wesleyan, I was majoring in Biology and I had gotten a high school teaching certificate in mathematics and in biology. I couldn' ; t use the microscope adequately when I got to Illionois Wesleyan and that' ; s the only shortcoming I ever had in trying to compete with other students. And the reason I couldn' ; t use the microscope as proficiently as the rest of the other students because all of them were Caucasian, there were three of us who were Black there- when I went to college at Alabama State we had about four microscopes in each classroom. When I got up there every student had his or her own microscope. So in undergraduate school I was just lookin' ; at the teacher do all of that. And certainly he didn' ; t want you touchin' ; it either. If he put his on the- you know, you a scientist, you know what I' ; m talkin' ; bout- he put it on a spot, and he didn' ; t want you to move it. So that' ; s the only thing in my entire academic career I remember having difficulty with. And once an undergraduate student showed me how to use a microscope, I didn' ; t have any more trouble with that. I can honestly say that I went to Ella Grant School- I know we' ; re talkin' ; bout Mobile County Training school but I went to Ella Grant School in Prichard and I had an English teacher in the seventh grade named Miss Alberta Davies and at Mobile Training School in the- I think it was eleventh grade- I had an English teacher named Mrs. Esther Picket Lang and I will honestly say, I learned all of the English grammar that I currently know right now between those two teachers and I don' ; t boast but I think I have a pretty good mastery of the English language. And I honestly say that. I have never learned any more grammar since that time. I don' ; t think a lot of kids can say that today. Carpenter: You mentioned that you love Mobile County Training School and I' ; m wondering if you' ; d be able to just kind of speak to why. Morse: (pointing offscreen) my book here. (interviewer hands Morse her MCTS yearbook) the mighty Whippets! We had the best football team around, and there was always this big rivalry between Mobile County Training School and what became Central High School because of course the principal left Mobile County Training School. He was promoted and he took a large number of his teachers with him and, as I indicated before, my mama made my brothers go down there. It was this big rivalry, we' ; re gonna beat this school, they messed our school up. They took our students, they took our teachers. And it was a friendly enough rivalry but we had a whole lot of fun (flipping through Mobile Country Training School yearbook) and it was basically athletic. And we had a lot of outstanding athletes, I' ; m sure you' ; re aware of that now even from just the most recent history. Carpenter: And you also, you mentioned a specific teacher from County as well and we hear a lot from alum that we talk to how important teachers were. Morse: I don' ; t mean to diminish the quality of any others but that was just an example, I' ; m tryna say of how those schools formed you so early and it' ; s always to me a shame for people to think that those schools were not capable of producing very good students. I don' ; t think that that is the truth. We had a number of outstanding teachers, most of them were outstanding teachers. I wanna believe they were outstanding teachers because they were outstanding people who would have been something other than a teacher today because they did not have that opportunity to become the president of the United States or a Harvard lawyer or a geologist or a psychologist. They just didn' ; t have those kinds of opportunities. So outstanding academicians were who we had for teachers. Not only were they good and smart academically, the whole demeanor around education when I came up was everybody needs to get an education and everybody is going to respect the teachers or the deliverers, whoever is givin' ; it to you, you' ; re gonna respect them, you' ; re gonna do what they say to do. And the teachers' ; attitude was, every child can learn and we' ; re gonna make you learn, and your parents work with us. I don' ; t know if we have that now. I really don' ; t. But I just know that there are so many people who have achieved, in my opinion, significantly, who came from what we today call " ; poverty stricken" ; - all of us, I was poverty stricken for sure. I didn' ; t know what poverty was, but I was poverty stricken. We didn' ; t have any- nobody bought our books ; the state didn' ; t buy out books. And I was thinkin' ; about your uh, (pointing offscreen towards Ify) you' ; re the scientist, chemist? Oh, wrong person, sorry about that! (pointing back towards Kaylee) (to Nathan) You saw me point at her just now, you didn' ; t stop me! People ask, I have a- my oldest brother majored in chemistry at Dillard, my second brother majored in mathematics at Alabama State, my third brother actually went to Alabama State but he graduated from the University of California and he was an engineer and my fourth brother was an accountant. Now people ask, say why all y' ; all went into math? I said because if mom and daddy bought one set of books this year, you were gon' ; use those books the next year. So we had to take the books that the elder one had. My brother had chemistry books that' ; s what I had to study, chemistry. Because nobody bought your books then. Now I don' ; t know they still do that- well they don' ; t use books anymore do they? Do they still use books in schools, or do they use all of the technology? Carpenter: I' ; ve used books but, maybe that' ; s outdated Ezimora: I think they use a mixture. Like colleges use textbooks but I know elementary schools and high schools that are using primarily technology now. Morse: Okay, well- I know they don' ; t do a lot of homework anymore because, that' ; s why I though they didn' ; t use books and I thought the reason they were saying they didn' ; t do homework was because kids didn' ; t have the technology at home. I don' ; t know, I' ; ve been retired since 1994 and I haven' ; t kept up a whole lot with the movement in the public schools with regard to stuff like that. But I tell ya, as I said, I became a scientist because my brothers were all scientists. Had to use their books. But I had a wonderful experience at Mobile County Training School, I can' ; t think of a teacher over there who did not appear to care for every child that they taught and they were determined to make you not only to intellectually achieve, they wanted you to be mannerable, they wanted you to dress appropriately, they wanted to teach you healthy habits, it was just- it certainly was different from the schools I see now, I can tell you that. Carpenter: I' ; m curious if you have any specific stories that, you know, that just stand out in your memory as moments where teachers kinda showed how much they cared about the students. Morse: Well-- You know, uh, corporal punishment was allowed during those days. And I' ; m old fashioned enough now to believe that anybody who disciplined you loved you and tried to make you do better. I couldn' ; t- the only episode I can remember, and I was angry about it because I was punished, one girl pushed another girl off of the chemistry stool, you know that tall. She didn' ; t push her off of it, she pulled it from under her as she sat. That girl sat really on the floor and hurt herself. Well the girl didn' ; t see who pushed her, she thought it was I. So, she swung and hit me. And of course, you know, my reaction was I hit back. And we had a fight. I didn' ; t fight in school, but I fought then. Well, the chemistry teacher- nobody saw the incident but the three of us. The chemistry teacher took his meter stick and spanked our legs. We go back to homeroom ; he has told our homeroom teachers " ; yo' ; little girls were in there fighting" ; she spanks our legs. Then she calls my mom and tells my mom I was at school fighting and mom spanked somethin' ; more than my legs. But I' ; m telling you, it was that kind of relationship you could have. I don' ; t think that would have happened that way today. I don' ; know. What do you think? Carpenter: No. Morse: I said, and I, to this day, I was so angry with my mother and with my homeroom teacher and with the chemistry teacher cause the girl who pulled the stool out got nothin' ; . I couldn' ; t convince them that- you asked me something I remember and I just thought I think of that as being funny but I know that those people cared about us and even though we got a spanking nobody viewed it as being abusive. Certainly, my mom didn' ; t because she abused me worse than they did. Carpenter: I' ; m curious also, and again I know you weren' ; t from Plateau or Africatown, but if there were any specific places in the Africatown community or any stores, anything off-campus that you remember spending time at at any point. Morse: Think about what you' ; re askin' ; me. I came on the bus and I certainly wasn' ; t gon' ; miss that bus. I was goin' ; back home. I was eleven years old, twelve, thirteen, fourteen. I wasn' ; t allowed to go anywhere. I remember the Hopes had a store that you could see across the fence from Mobile County Training School and I remember- I didn' ; t do this, probably cause I didn' ; t have a nickel- but the children from Whitley school got out of school earlier than we did, like younger children. You know- do you know where the community center is now over there? I think that' ; s where Whitley School used to be. They' ; re located over in Prichard now but I think that' ; s where the first Whitley School was and those little children would be gon' ; home and we would maybe be out at PE or somewhere, and the kids would give those little kids a nickel through the fence cause we weren' ; t allowed to go off campus, to go to that Hope Store- it was no more than three houses over and bring them a cookie or something back with their money and somebody told the kids, if somebody gives you money to go to that store, you take it and you go home. (laughing) So we finally had to stop doing that. But to answer your question, Hope Store is the only little store I know, and I never physically went into it because, as I said, we were not allowed to go off-campus and I was riding the bus. I got in that bus, I got there when the bus put us off. We did go through ; I will tell you this area- I don' ; t know how the geography is now but Turner Road was where our bus put us off. That' ; s where that old International Paper Company was. And we had to walk through the woods to get to the school. And same way, we had to walk back through the woods to get to Turner Road. So, the most, really even to this day, the most I know about Africatown' ; s geography is probably that little bit because I was, we were obedient kids. We didn' ; t run around, and we didn' ; t have money to go sit down and eat, and if we had had it, I can' ; t think of a place we would have been able to go to eat. Carpenter: And so, you said you graduated 1953 is that right? Morse: Mhmm. There' ; s my yearbook. Carpenter: There' ; s your yearbook right there. Where' ; d you go after that? Morse: I went to downtown Mobile to what was then a branch of Alabama State teacher' ; s college and I went two years there and that school is now Bishop State Community College. And after I graduated there then I went to its main campus in Montgomery, from which I graduated in 1957 as a secondary education teacher in mathematics and biology. Carpenter: And what was that experience for you like, in college? Morse: I guess just-- let me say it to you this way. It never occurred to me that I was poor and that I was not going to school and that I was not going to college. I mean, goin' ; to school was what you did until you got a degree in my family. My parents were not educated but the same reason that we were going eight or ten miles to high school my parents would' ; ve had to go 40 miles to high school from where they were born. They were not- and of course that whole generation before me they didn' ; t have any transportation, they lived in the country. My mother actually did get her GED after she was married. My father never got any education above the seventh grade, but education was very critical and very important to my mother. And I think it had to do with the fact that it was very important to her mother. Now my mother was the, let' ; s see-- my mother' ; s the fifth of eight children. The first and second went to high school and then her mother died, and they were reared then by their father and a surrogate mother and nobody else went to high school. It appears to me, and my mom said this, that her mother was determined that her children were gonna be educated. My oldest uncle actually came to Mobile County Training School from the country because Mr. I.J Whitley was from Frankville, Alabama, and that' ; s where my mother was from. Mr. Whitley' ; s brother married my aunt. He said to my grandmother, according to her mother, your children need to come to Mobile to be educated so she sent that oldest one there. She sent the second one to Selma University and then she died. Nobody else in my mother' ; s family went past that little school they have there in the country. But that gave my mother a dying thirst for her children to be educated. My dad had six children. I can remember doing his income taxes for him in about 1948 or ' ; 49 he had made $2,000 that year I was in the eighth grade doing his arithmetic. My mother never worked but all six of my mother' ; s children, all five of my siblings and I, all of us were college educated. Because that' ; s what you did! So, when you ask me how did it feel when you- it didn' ; t feel anything. I' ; m not trying to be funny ; I' ; m just simply saying that' ; s what I thought everybody else did. That was our routine. Carpenter: And you mentioned a couple times that your family didn' ; t have a lot of means when you were growing up, but you never really felt poor and I' ; m wondering if you could expand on that a little more. Morse: Well, I didn' ; t say I didn' ; t feel poor but everybody I knew was poor. I knew I didn' ; t get all that I wanted. I know that daddy would patch your shoe ' ; til he couldn' ; t patch it anymore. I' ; m looking back in retrospect but at the time, that for me was normal. I know this, I never wanted for any major things like food, shelter. I never- but I might not have had the coat I wanted. But I always had a coat. And I' ; m sure there' ; s a lot of other African Americans who were a lot less deprived than we were at that time but in the neighborhood where I lived, hey, you were just like everybody else. It' ; s difficult for you to understand how you don' ; t know something is unusual if everybody around you is doin' ; it. Carpenter: And so, when you went to the main Alabama State College in Montgomery what was it you majored in there, was it chemistry? Morse: What did I major in? I majored in education as a teacher, but my teaching field was mathematics and biology. Carpenter: And then after you graduated? Morse: I taught mathematics in the public schools for about 14 1/2 years. Carpenter: In Mobile? Morse: Mhmm. Here in Mobile Public Schools. I really was, I preferred to teach biology but it' ; s ironic that I never taught it because they could never find a math teacher. They could always find a biology teacher. I could remember having a big argument with my principal, I taught math 4, 5 years and then a biology position opened and I asked for it, and he says no, he hired a brand new teacher for it. We fussed about that but he says " ; I can' ; t find a math teacher" ; . That hasn' ; t changed very much, has it. I don' ; t think they can find a lot of teachers in the secondary schools now. But I, so, even though I have a master' ; s degree in the teaching of biology, and I tell people this all of the time, I got my degree before they discovered DNA so don' ; t ask me anything about biology, I don' ; t know it. But I taught math for 14 ½ years and then- what did I do?- I went to- I took a job in the summer at Spring Hill College in an Upward Bound program and I taught math there and God blessed me, they asked me to come to teach over there. So, I worked over there first in, just doing remedial math for students who came there and then later on I did the chairmanship of the department of secondary education at the head of the teaching of math. I stayed at Spring Hill eight years. But at the time that I was over there I only had a master' ; s degree and probably would have died there with a master' ; s degree except that the state of Alabama made rules and regulations that made it very very unprofitable for Spring Hill College to continue their secondary ed programs. They still have, right now, elementary ed and early childhood but I still don' ; t think they have secondary ed programs because when you do secondary education, that' ; s diverse. I can- you gotta have every subject area covered. And I thought we did a magnificent job at Spring Hill College because we used the arts and science people to teach the subject areas and we used people like myself to teach at least some of the math but I taught how to teach math, I taught psychology and all of the teacher education but the state of Alabama came up with a rule that said for every secondary program that you offer, you have got to have a person with a PhD degree in that education. Not chemistry but chemistry education. Not history but history education. At Spring Hill College, we didn' ; t have any of that so the president said he' ; d have to spend more money hiring PhD degrees than he would have students because it was a very small school. So, after that I went back to the University of Alabama and I got a degree, but I didn' ; t do the math- or the, uh- the biology. I got a PhD degree in what they offered then called educational research and statistics and I grabbed that because of the math and the teaching. Educational psychology, research and statistics, I' ; m sorry. Carpenter: And what kind of drew you to the field of education? Morse: I wanted to be a nurse initially. There weren' ; t too many options for African American women at that time. I wanted to be a nurse, I actually got a scholarship to Tuskegee where they offered nursing and I had a four-year scholarship with tuition but my family didn' ; t have enough money to send me with the room and board. And then when somebody offered to try and get me the room and board, I was only fifteen and they said you had to be eighteen to enter the nursing program. So, what they told me was to go down to the college here and major in science that I was doin' ; anyway, cause of the books and after three years to come to Tuskegee and they would take care of my expenses and whatever. And I guess I was stupid enough to think that after three years I was gonna do one more year and I was gonna be a nurse. At that time, it took five years to become a registered nurse. I don' ; t know how long it takes now but I don' ; t think it takes five years. But I already had three years of college education in teacher training and one more year I' ; d be out and done. I wasn' ; t about to go five years. But as it turns out teaching has been the most rewarding experience I could ever have. Because I love children and I think that I did some children some good, I don' ; t know. I know that I' ; ve had experiences where people tell me they could never do math well until I helped ' ; em with it but I don' ; t know but I just loved it. If I had been told that I had to teach instead of going to nursing school, I would' ; ve been very unhappy. If someone told me, you have to do that. But as it turned out, I' ; m just as happy as I could be. Very happy. Carpenter: And throughout all of that did you stay in touch with your classmates? Morse: We used to have a class- I don' ; t know whether we had the first one, but I think it might have been Plateau like the 20th or 25th I don' ; t remember but after that we would have one every year or two. And then we started dying. And so, it got to the point that there were so few left we stopped having them. But what we do even now, if any of the classmates in this book (tapping yearbook) come to Mobile, Alabama from wherever they live, we get together and have lunch or something, breakfast or something. Most of us are- you know, most of my classmates are older. I' ; m old too, I' ; m 81 and I was only 15. So, they' ; re like, 82, 83, 84. Yeah. Yeah, so we do have a lot of them who are not able to get around and to do well and then unfortunately there' ; s- we have a large number that' ; s deceased. But we still talk to each other and get together every now and then. (flipping through yearbook) But you know, we' ; re not as active with our alumni as you are, I' ; m sure. Carpenter: Ify, is there not enough battery? (Ify replies off-camera) oh nevermind, sorry. And it sounds like- and you said you were at the Alumni Association meeting, is that right? Are you involved with the-- Morse: Yeah, I' ; m on the board of the Alumni Association. Carpenter: The board, that' ; s it. Morse: I go to meetings and I was at the event that we had Friday after thanksgiving. Carpenter: I' ; m curious since you kind of stayed in the mobile area and been involved at least with the school if you are able to speak- Morse: Stop, stop, let me stop you there. I lived in Mobile all of my life. I have not always been involved with the Alumni Association. I needed to feel that it merited my time and when it did then I joined it. I did do a contract, a consultancy with the Mobile Public Schools after I retired, and I did some work with some of the teachers over there, I think. And I volunteered and taught math for three weeks for a minute when one principal didn' ; t have a math teacher and I went over there for her and taught until a teacher came, or she got one. So, that' ; s been the most that I' ; ve done with the school per say. Carpenter: I' ; m curious if you are able at all to kind of, over the years if you' ; ve seen that community in Plateau or Africatown change at all and I know you never lived there and didn' ; t spend much time outside of school there as a student but-- Morse: And I can' ; t say this, but I certainly believe this, I do know that the community has deteriorated physically. I want to believe it' ; s because most of the people who were educated have not returned to that community but that' ; s pretty much standard here, even in the city of Prichard. I was born in Prichard but most people who were born here don' ; t live here anymore. My sister and I live here but all four of my siblings, my brothers left. They went to California because they had careers they couldn' ; t get a job with. They didn' ; t have any Black engineers around here when they graduated, or Black accountants, Black chemists. They didn' ; t hire any of those, so my brothers left. I' ; m going to believe that the same thing has happened with Plateau- Africatown. Carpenter: And one thing about- Morse: Have you heard some of the other people who are from there say that? Carpenter: We have talked with folks who are there and, yeah. I think folks have mentioned that there' ; s just been, you know, people leaving the community. One thing I wanted to return to, I forget to ask earlier, I' ; m curious at all how much you were aware of or how much the kind of history of Africatown was discussed while you were a student at County in terms of the original people and the Clotilda? Morse: I don' ; t recall emphasis on Cudjo Lewis, the Clotilda. We had a lot of what we called then Black history taught to us. Every year we had to recite a poem and most of the poets were Black. Every year we had to attend what they called a cultural event down at the Theater and most of the performers were Black. So, we got that kind of Black heritage, so to speak. It wasn' ; t History then, but it was our heritage. I can' ; t remember a whole lot about the current status until John Smith became mayor of Prichard. I know it was in the mid-60' ; s. And he started bringing up Africatown and the history. But no, to answer your question, one of the - did you interview Doris Allen Lee somebody did a- probably was that group, they have some interviews that an athletic school, sports school, somethin' ; because they had so many athletes over there, Doris Lee was an athlete, that' ; s why they interviewed her. But Doris Lee was my seatmate at Mobile County Training School. Do you know what a seatmate is? Do you remember those desk where the back of somebody' ; s seat was the top of - have you ever seen where the back of their seat was the top of your desk, and two people sat. So, if we were coming down the row you might have 6 seats but that' ; s 12, plus 2, that' ; s 24 people. Because one, two sat there. Three, four sat there. Five, six sat there so if you got, you see what I' ; m sayin? So, you had a seatmate and I sat right next to Doris Lee and I mention all a' ; that to say that Doris is one of the descendants of Cudjoe Lewis. She- and I never knew that, and we were the best of friends in high school. So, I didn' ; t get that history. Others may have gotten it, others may have known it, but I don' ; t remember getting that. Carpenter: I think that' ; s all I was kind of wanting to ask, (to Ify and Kaylee) I don' ; t know if either of you two have any questions? (to Ms. Morse) Is there anything else you wanted to add? Morse: I just hope that, I hope that people can appreciate how people my age appreciate the kind of school that Mobile County Training School was. The relationship between the faculty, the staff, the families, the parents. Even the teachers who worked over there visited our homes in Prichard. You stayed absent ; they came over to see about you. That was a part of their job. So, that school along- I can' ; t keep Ella Grant School out of it, I know that' ; s not what we' ; re here about. But Ella Grant School and Mobile County Training School gave me enough background and enough education to succeed anywhere that anybody can succeed. Carpenter: Ok, well thanks so much for your time, this was really great. Morse: You' ; re welcome. video 0 https://oberlincollegelibrary.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=A_Beatrice_Morse.xml A_Beatrice_Morse.xml
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Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Carousel Pic 6
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Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Carousel Pic 5
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Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Carousel Pic 4
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Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Carousel Pic 3
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Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Carousel Pic 2
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Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Carousel Pic 1
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Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oberlin Logo
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Person
An individual.
Biographical Text
My peers and I have worked with C.H.E.S.S. (Clean, Healthy, Educated, Safe, and Sustainable Cities), MCTS AA (The Mobile Country Training School Alumni Association), and the Africatown community over the past few years. Our projects included community health surveys, research and presentations based on identified concerns of the community, oral history archive interviewing, archiving and video editing, as well as independent research on the impact of industrial pollutants and sustainable community development. I have developed lasting relationships with the people in Africatown and I hope in my Master's work I will begin research offering possible solutions to some of the environmental challenges faced by the community.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Kaylee Elliott
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Person
An individual.
Biographical Text
Initially, I helped to conduct and transcribe oral history interviews during the first year or so on the project. For my second year, I've been helping Pastor Tucker create a series of paintings about the formation of Africatown and painting portraits of past community members. Being a part of this relationship with Africatown has been the most important part of my experience at Oberlin; I've learned so much about community and the importance of history, and I truly feel invited into a loving and joyful family.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Imani Badillo
oberlin
student
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Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
Photos
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Home Page Carousel
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
October 2017
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Chie Sakakibara
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photos
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Story Map Photos
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
IT
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
IT
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Clotilda Landing Site
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Story Map Photos
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
IT
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
IT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Almuni Association
Subject
The topic of the resource
Story Map Image
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Story Map Photos
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
IT
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
IT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Community Gardens
Subject
The topic of the resource
Story Map Images
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Story Map Photos
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
IT
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
IT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Industry
Subject
The topic of the resource
Story Map Images
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Story Map Photos
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
IT
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
IT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Plateau Community Center
Subject
The topic of the resource
Story Map Images
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Story Map Photos
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
IT
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
IT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cemetery
Subject
The topic of the resource
Story Map Images
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Story Map Photos
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
IT
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
IT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Yorktown
Subject
The topic of the resource
Story Map Images
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Story Map Photos
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
IT
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
IT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
MCTS
Subject
The topic of the resource
Story Map Images
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Story Map Photos
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
IT
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
IT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Africatown Freedom Bell
Subject
The topic of the resource
Story Map Images
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Story Map Photos
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
IT
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
IT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Union Baptist
Subject
The topic of the resource
Story Map image
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Story Map Photos
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
IT
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
IT
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Welcome Center
Subject
The topic of the resource
Story Map image
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Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Nathan Carpenter
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Gloria Giles Nault
OHMS Object
This field contain the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file withing the OHMS Viewer).
https://oberlincollegelibrary.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=Interview90798.xml
Interview Keyword
This field adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History Item Type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka record.
Reunion
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and/or Transcript and is what make the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka.
5.4 Gloria Giles Nault Africatown Oberlin College Library Hawaii Nursing. Native American Love Stories Mobile County Training School Reunion Gloria Giles Nault Nathan Carpenter 1:|23(8)|34(3)|53(11)|75(6)|97(11)|109(15)|129(8)|144(1)|161(4)|176(11)|187(2)|209(8)|224(14)|236(12)|256(1)|268(12)|277(15)|290(6)|304(7)|321(8)|336(15)|356(5)|369(1)|389(2)|409(2)|418(14)|438(10)|448(8)|467(6)|489(9)|499(12)|511(7)|522(12)|533(7)|549(10) 0 https://youtu.be/B8eG7Js8LiI YouTube video 38 Family History in Africatown My father used to steal persimmons from Uncle Cudjo. So, you know they were long there. And I'm told that when the Africans were released there, they kind of helped them understand what it's like in America and help them to integrate themselves and help create Africatown. Giles talks about the long history of her family in the area and tells stories of her father growing up in Africatown, playing tricks on ladies and Cudjo Lewis. Africatown ; Cudjo ; Cudjo Lewis ; Free Men of Color ; Henry Williams ; Persimmons Jokes. ; Lewis, Cudjo ; Native American ; Stories. 286 Learning to Read at MCTS Oh, it was great, it was a time for me of freedom. I had very, very strict parents so going to school was like my release. Even though there was lots of rules at school that kept us straight, but I liked learning. Giles talks about her experience at MCTS and being inspired by Mr. Danny while learning to read. MCTS ; Mocotian ; Mr. Danny ; Ph.D. Education. ; Freedom. ; Learning. ; Mobile County Training School ; PhD degree ; Reading. 445 The Role of Church My father's father was one of the people that started Yorktown Baptist Church under a grapevine, and so my father continued there, and when he married my mother, she had to agree that the children would go to his church. So, we would attend his church and afterwards then we had to go to her church until it was out. Giles talks about how church congregations supported children learning to speak publicly and were a source of family connections. Christ ; Church ; congregation ; Family connections ; Sunday ; Toastmasters ; Yorktown ; Yorktown Baptist Baptist Church ; Childhood ; Easter. ; Education. ; Learning. ; Public speaking. ; Speech. ; Toastmasters International 570 High School Dance and Travel It was another opening into a whole new world of dance, so I was able to perform. I also joined the La Rosa Roja Club, and I had never been in a club, and we traveled. We went to Miami. Unfortunately that was where I went every summer. Giles talks about being involved in dance at MCTS and traveling to Miami with her sisters during the summer. Bus ; club ; Greyhound ; Integrate ; La Rosa Roja Club ; Mardi Gras ; Martin Luther King ; Miami ; Summer Childhood ; Clubs. ; Dance ; Dancing ; Greyhound buses ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968. ; Mardi Gras (Festival) ; Miami (Fla.) ; Mobile County Training School ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) ; Rhode Island. ; Summer. ; Travel. ; Tuskegee Institute. 732 Higher Education, Career, and Adult Life I went to medical college at Georgia to get my B.S. in nursing. After I got my B.S.N., I decided to stay there and get my masters. Then I wanted to go on and get my doctorate in cardiology or thoracic nursing, but I got a better invitation, to get married. Giles talks about her higher education journey in nursing, meeting her husband, and moving to Hawai'i. B.S.N. ; Black student ; Comissioner of Pensions and Security ; Curriculum and Instruction ; Doctorate ; Gary Cooper ; graduation ; Hawai'i ; Higher Education Administration ; Jay Cooper ; Marriage ; Masters ; Mastin School of Nursing ; mayor ; medical college ; Nurse ; nursing school ; PhD ; Practicing ; Protest ; Providence School of Nursing ; Thoracic nursing Cardiology. ; Civil rights movement. ; Communication. ; Education. ; Educational media ; Educators. ; Fishing. ; Hawaii ; Kress ; Learning. ; Minister ; Mobile (Ala.) ; Non-verbal communication. ; Nursing. ; PhD degree ; Protest and social movements ; Statistics. ; Student ; Teacher ; University of Connecticut ; University of South Alabama 1307 Researching Africatown Love Stories The first time I came back was with a grant from the National Endowment for Humanities, and that was to do research in Mobi- in Africatown, and so I recorded love stories and philosophies of people that were there. Giles talks about returning to Africatown to research and write a book about love stories, and recounts her own parents' love story. Africatown ; book ; Church ; Minority ; National Endowment for Humanities ; Parents ; Philosophies ; pregnant ; Sandbar ; secret ; Water Community ; Love stories. ; Marriage. ; National Endowment for the Humanities. ; Pregnancy. ; Trust. ; Writing. 1575 Native American Family and Mommees She didn't want us to become little wild Native American kids. Because she thought it was tough enough to be a descendant of one minority, but to have the practices and be the descendants of two minorities would be too difficult. Giles talks about growing up without Native American practices but still remaining very close to her Native American family and being watched over by all the aunties and mommees. Africatown ; Aunt Rita ; Hawai'i ; Minority ; Momma ; Momma Rosie ; Mommee ; Mothers ; Practices ; Teachings Childhood ; Descendants ; Hawaii ; Native American 1718 MCTS Reunion 2018 I was hesitant because I thought no one would recognize me and I wouldn't recognize them. But I did, and so I'm so excited, yeah. It's great being back, you know, and hugging and just holding the people that I was so close to for eighteen years of my life. Giles talks about how wonderful it was to see everybody from MCTS at the 50th reunion of the class of 1968. Anderson Flen ; Christine ; classmates ; Creole ; Hawai'i ; MCTS newsletters ; memories ; Prom ; reunion ; Sandra Communication. ; Community ; Dance ; Hawaii ; Marriage. ; Mobile County Training School 1884 Family Focused Childhood and Future As a kid, I just knew it was, everybody was too strict and too- too much watching us- but looking back, it was wonderful growing up being secure, not having the fears that kids can have now, and just knowing you were loved. Giles talks about having a childhood that was prosperous, despite not having much money, the love of the neighborhood and family, and continuing her research in Hawai'i. Aloha ; Breath ; Family connections ; Hawai'i ; Home ; Leftovers ; Love ; Ohana ; Prosperous ; Sharing ; Spirit Childhood ; Family. ; Fishing. ; Hawaii ; Hospitality. ; Love. ; Quilting. ; Stories. ; Writing. Oral History (00:00) Nathan Carpenter: I am Nathan Carpenter with Oberlin College, I' ; m here with Ify Ezimora and Santiago Roman, both from Oberlin College, and here with Ms. Gloria Giles, is that? (00:09) Gloria Giles: Nault. Carpenter: What is it? Giles: Giles Nault. Carpenter: Nault, Dr. Gloria Giles Nault, who' ; s going to be participating in an oral history interview for the Africatown digital archive. Um, it is November 24th, we' ; re at the Battle House Hotel in Mobile, Alabama. I just wanna say for the camera as well that your participation in the interview is voluntary, you can choose to not respond to any question, you can choose to end the interview at any point. I just wanted to clarify that before we begin. Carpenter: So I guess to get started, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about your family history and what you know of it as it pertains to Africatown or more generally as well. Giles: Okay, my family were called Free Men of Color. And there were about six or eight families, and if you wish (01:00), I could give you the whole list of all the Free Men of Color that relate to me and my family. The Adams and the Giles were first cousins because our great-grandmothers were Native American women who married other men and developed the two families. I was told by Mr. Henry Williams that my family used to make furniture and ship it back to Europe inlaid with Mother-of-Pearl long before even slavery. So, it' ; s a Native American based family. Carpenter: So do you know how far back your family goes in Africatown specifically? Giles: oh, let' ; s see how many generations did my brother- My brother did a whole scan of (02:00), he did a lot of research, and he went back about eight generations and we were still there. Um, my father used to steal persimmons from Uncle Cudjo. So, you know they were long there. And I' ; m told that when the Africans were released there, they kind of helped them understand what it' ; s like in America and help them to integrate themselves and help create Africatown. Carpenter: So, it' ; s one of those stories that you heard growing up, the persimmons and all that? Yeah? Giles: Yeah, lots of good stories like that, yeah. My father was mmm, now I would say precocious, back then he was considered very naughty. Carpenter: Mhm, in what way? Giles: He liked to play jokes. Carpenter: Uh-huh. Like when he was a young boy, he wanted to see the ankles of the ladies because they wore long skirts, and in the evening, the ladies (03:00) would all get their pots and they' ; d carry it on their heads to go and get water in the creek, and so he took a black stocking and stuffed it like a snake, put it across the path, and as the ladies went down to get the water he didn' ; t do anything, but when they were coming back he' ; d pull the snake across the path, and the ladies pulled up their skirts to run, and he was so happy he started laughing, so he got caught. Carpenter: Mhm. Giles: And ah, all kinds of little stories like that, and they said that his father used to make him lay on the steps and he would take the side of a handsaw and spank him with it because of all the things he did, so then that was a celebration. And it continued until the end of his life, playing tricks and doing things like that. Carpenter: And you said that he knew Cudjo Lewis, is that right? Giles: Yes, he did. Carpenter: Did he talk about that a lot? Giles: Not very much, except (04:00), you know, how he talked? He put an ' ; e' ; on the end of everything, like " ; I gonna eatee you" ; . And, um, they were in his persimmon tree, and he was talking to his animals, and he looked at the pig and said, " ; I' ; m going to eatee you," ; and he looked at the chicken and said, " ; I' ; m going to eatee you," ; and there was a pigeon and he said, " ; Oh don' ; t you laugh over dere ' ; cause I' ; m gonna eatee you, too," ; and they (my father and his friend in the tree) started laughing, and he (Uncle Cudjo) got the pitchfork and he kept them in the tree from that day ' ; til the next morning. Carpenter: Oh my goodness. Giles: Yeah. (laughing) So they learned their lesson until they decided to steal his watermelons. Carpenter: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Giles: Yeah. Carpenter: So, then, did you have lots of family come through Mobile County Training School as well then? Giles: Well, all my brother and sisters. I have a brother. Well, my younger sister didn' ; t because that was when the schools were divided (05:00)- but an older brother, I brought his Mocotian (school year book) to be seen here. And two sisters, I was the last one in 1968. Carpenter: And what was- I don' ; t know, what was your experience at Mobile County Training School? Giles: Oh, it was great, it was a time for me of freedom. I had very, very strict parents so going to school was like my release. Even though there was lots of rules at school that kept us straight, but I liked learning. But, originally I was a child that was challenged. I was considered my mother' ; s slow-child, and it was very difficult for me to read. And no matter how I tried, I could not read. But and so people would say, " ; Oh, Gloria can' ; t read," ; (06:00) and I continued to remember that, but there was one man we call Mr. Danny, and he would come over every day and sit with me, and he would say, " ; Gloria, you can read." ; And we would try and try and try every day. And finally when I was in the sixth grade I was looking out the window, and I was in the D-reading group, um, and I was thinking about what Mr. Danny told me and I said, " ; Today I can read." ; I went to my reading group, I read the D-book ; I went from that day reading in the D-reading group to reading at the college level because I finally believed it. And I promised myself that day that I would get the highest degree I could. And I did. Carpenter: What degree was that? Giles: Ph.D. Carpenter: Okay. Giles: Yeah. Carpenter: I' ; m curious, so that kind of- as we interview folks, we hear about, kind of, these figures in the community (07:00) who were so, kind of, instrumental in people' ; s school experiences and childhood more generally. It was Mr. Danny, you said was what it was? Giles: Yes, he was very significant. His name was Danny Wilson, but we called people by their first name and just put Mr. or Mrs. in front it, or Auntie, or mommee. I had lots of mommies. Carpenter: Were there other folks like Mr. Danny in the community who were kind of role models or inspirations for you? Giles: Lots were in the church, and my parents. In the church, we started speaking publicly, as very, very tiny kids. We would get an Easter speech, and the first Easter speech was " ; Christ Rose on Easter Morning" ; . And every child had that speech, but it didn' ; t matter to the congregation. Each child was applauded (08:00), and they' ; d go, (clapping) " ; Yeah, sister, yeah, yeah." ; And, you know, I remember that as being three years old and saying something that everybody approved of. And from there, I studied and continued to speak, enter all the oratorical contests, and I became president of Toastmasters, and I became one of the national champions as a result. Carpenter: Was this in Union Baptist, was that the church? Giles: Yorktown Baptist. Carpenter: Yorktown. Yorktown Baptist. Giles: My father' ; s father was one of the people that started Yorktown Baptist Church under a grapevine, and so my father continued there, and when he married my mother, she had to agree that the children would go to his church. So, we would attend his church and afterwards then we had to go to her church until it was out. So Sunday, from Sunday school ' ; til about three was church. Too long, but the first (09:00) Sunday was the best because we got ice cream after church. So, we loved that time. Carpenter: And so, this sounds like there was a strong sense of family connection to Yorktown. Is that right? Giles: Yes, very much, very much. Every holiday, everything was associated with there, and supporting you, speaking publicly, and learning. Carpenter: So then, after you went to Mobile Country Training School and you graduated, why don' ; t you first- what kinds of things were you involved in at the school during high school? Giles: We had a dance class, and if you were selected to be in this dance class, then you performed at half-times(at football games) and different events for the communities. For instance, during Mardi Gras, at the different balls (10:00) you performed, and it was wonderful because my mother loved dancing and one of the things that she had my father to agree to was that he would not stop her from dancing because she liked to dance. But for some reason, she allowed (my brother and sisters) everybody to dance but me. But when Mrs. Roberts got permission for me to dance, it was a first for me, and it was another opening into a whole new world of dance, so I was able to perform. I also joined the La Rosa Roja Club, and I had never been in a club, and we traveled. We went to Miami. Unfortunately that was where I went every summer because when we were children my mother said she wanted us to go to the four corners of the United States so she could visit. So there was a sister in Miami. Each year I was put on a bus starting at age eight (11:00), and I was responsible for my sister and my two nieces, and we would ride forty-eight hours on the Greyhound bus to Miami, Florida to my sister. And spend a month in Miami making new friends there and then coming back to Plateau. Carpenter: Did you all travel to other places together? Giles: One of my sisters first went to Miami, and later one went to Rhode Island, and so then I went to Rhode Island. My sister was asked by Martin Luther King to go there because they wanted someone to come and integrate the schools, and so she went there. Carpenter: And so, did they know each other? Your sister and Martin Luther King? Giles: No, he called Tuskegee Institute, and they recommended her there, and so then he called her. Carpenter: I' ; m curious, you mentioned that experience of dance in high school. You said it opened up the world of dance for you? Giles: Yes. Carpenter: Is that something that remains important (12:00) for you? Giles: Important and fun. Last night was such fun dancing. Unfortunately I married a non-dancer. Carpenter: And so then after Mobile County Training School, what did you do next after you graduated? Giles: Next, When we were born, our mother told us what we were going to become. My brother was to become a minister ; my sister, there were two before me, the first one, was to become a teacher ; to the next one she said, " ; You' ; re vivacious, so I' ; m gonna leave it up to you ; " ; and she told me to become a nurse. So, I knew that' ; s what I would do. After graduation from high school, I went to Mastin School of Nursing, and I was the first Black to be admitted to that school. Carpenter: So, at that time, I guess, there were a lot of students (13:00) involved with the civil rights movement around the country. Is that something that- that you were involved with as well at that time? Giles: I have a writing that I can share with you, I can mail it to you later, but my sister was interested in it. But here in Mobile, people didn' ; t protest too much against making efforts. So, one day my sister decided that she would take me to Kress after the big incident where the kids sat on the stools to order food in Kress- in another city- and were attacked. So she decided one day when she was allowed to take me to the dentist on the bus that we would come back to town and go to Kress and sit on the stools and have a hot dog. I was young, so I didn' ; t know the significance of it. For me, it was just the most exciting day that my big sister took me on an adventure (14:00) that my mother had never taken me on because prior to that my mother would take us shopping, and she would buy a hot dog from Woolworth but not sit or anything, we had to stand outside the building and eat it because at that time we were not allowed to even sit in the park or walk through it. Carpenter: And so, how old were you when your sister took you to get the hot dog? Giles: Hmm, I had to be around seven. Carpenter: Okay. And so then you mentioned, you said, you were the only Black student in the nursing school? Giles: Yes. Carpenter: What was that experience like for you? Giles: Well, it was great because I just blended in and was accepted. There were some events that they didn' ; t understand: for instance, I would go walking in the neighborhood, and I was called in by the director and told it was very unsafe (15:00), and I had to explain to her that that was a community of educators, and friends of my parents, friends of my sisters, and that I had an aunt there. It was fine to walk in that community. But being the first African-American for them to have there, they didn' ; t realize that it was okay for me even though they didn' ; t feel it was secure for the other students. So, it was different for them, that was a little learning curve. Carpenter: Mhm. And so after nursing school, did you go, did you start practicing as a nurse? Giles: I worked for a year, with the cardiologist that taught us cardiology, in cardiac catheterizations. And then I went to medical college at Georgia to get my B.S. in nursing. After I got my B.S.N., I (16:00) decided to stay there and get my masters. Then I wanted to go on and get my doctorate in cardiology or thoracic nursing, but I got a better invitation, to get married. I stopped after my B.S.N. And after I got married I got my masters at University of South Alabama. At that time there were only two buildings and they were just starting it. It was great ; I did get my masters, but I got it in Educational Media with an emphasis on Non-Verbal Communication in Nursing. At the time of my graduation, just prior to it, I had an invitation to go to a yachting events at the request of the president of the university (University of South Alabama). You see, when I was in nursing school, my date to the prom was (17:00) Jay Cooper, who became the mayor of Prichard, Alabama. I ended up marrying his brother who was General Gary Cooper, who became the Commissioner of Pensions and Security for the State of Alabama which was a first. So, I had a lot of opportunities that other people didn' ; t. One was we would go out on the university' ; s yacht, and so my graduation was important, they wanted to make that public. So I did get my masters with a little emphasis. Earlier, because of the things I did after my graduation from nursing, the Mayor of Mobile did present me a gold key to the city which I keep in my safe deposit box. And it is real gold, so I was surprised when I did find out that it was. Carpenter: So then, how did you and your husband end up meeting? Giles: Through his brother (laughing). (18:00) When I was on a prom date with his brother Jay. His brother Jay introduced us because we knew Jay was going to be married, we were friends he was going to be my date for the prom ' ; cause I didn' ; t have anyone. Because I spoke like my white classmates, like those around me when I would call the home of young men that were Black- if their mothers answered they said, (gasp) " ; You' ; re dealing with a little white girl and you can' ; t see her." ; They didn' ; t believe that I was Black because of my speech pattern. So it was very difficult for me to date those of my own color. But Jay wasn' ; t afraid, so Jay took me to my prom. Carpenter: And I' ; m curious, you said you got your Masters in Education? Giles: Educational Media. Carpenter: What led you to that (19:00), that path after coming through nursing school? Giles: When I was teaching, I taught at Providence School of Nursing ; they wouldn' ; t accept me as a student, but it was okay for me to come back as a teacher. And one of the other teachers was in that study, so I decided that I wanted to see what it was like, and I went and I liked it. I loved media. I loved working with equipment, I loved taking it apart ; when I took the test for the military, they said I should be an airplane mechanic or a doctor. I didn' ; t choose either of those. Carpenter: Did you think about either of those? Giles: No. I was told to be a nurse from the day I was born, and we all did what our mother, my mother said. Carpenter: And then you mentioned you went on to get a Ph.D.? Giles ; Yes. From the University of Connecticut (20:00), and I got it in Curriculum and Instruction, plus Non-Verbal Communication and Higher Education Administration with my foreign language being Statistics. Carpenter: So you moved around quite a bit, it sounds like, after you left Africatown. Giles: Yeah, I did. Now I live in Hawai' ; i. Carpenter: How' ; d you end up there? Giles: How did I end up there? When I was a child, I told my parents I was in the wrong place in the wrong time, and I would say to them: I said, " ; I have to be near the water," ; and they thought, " ; Well, you' ; re near the bay and the river," ; we could hear the ships all the time, my father took me fishing, and they didn' ; t understand it (me) . And when I was nine years old, I heard the word Hawai' ; i, and that it had become a state. And I said, " ; That' ; s where I belong, (21:00) I have to be there." ; And I got the name as being the weird child (laughing) of my parents, but I professed all that time, and when I had a daughter I told her all the time that we had to go to Hawai' ; i because I needed to go home. When I got my Ph.D., the way they would announce that you had made it is they would come out and say, " ; Dr. Giles, congratulations. Now what will you do?" ; And before I could answer, my daughter said, " ; We' ; re going to Hawai' ; i." ; And that' ; s what we did. Carpenter: How old was your daughter then? Giles: She was three. Carpenter: So she was mostly raised in Hawai' ; i, then. Giles: Yeah. Carpenter: And did you come back once you moved there? Did you come back to visit Mobile much at all? Giles: Not very much. The first time I came back was with a grant from the National Endowment for Humanities (22:00), and that was to do research in Mobi- in Africatown, and so I recorded love stories and philosophies of people that were there, and now none of those are there- I still have the tapes, and lots- briefcases- of information that I collected. I didn' ; t do anything with it because after I became injured, and it was just a few years ago that I' ; ve been able to be up and moving and traveling. Carpenter: What-what were you gonna do with that information that you collected? Giles: To write it into a book. Because there were only a few people who at that time were willing to talk and share their stories because they had shared those stories ; and people took it, wrote books, made money from it, and nothing came back, so they were afraid to do it. And my plan was to return the money to the (23:00), to the community. Carpenter: And did you feel like there was more of, kind of, that sense of trust ' ; cause you' ; d come from Africatown yourself? Giles: From there, yeah. Carpenter: Yeah. Giles: And I had cousins and things that collected their information, and they wanted to tell their stories, stories that I had never heard. Has anyone told you about the Sandbar? Carpenter: I don' ; t think so, no. Giles: There was a sandbar that the young people would sneak to, or those that engaged or newly married that had to live with their parents, and they told me that ninety percent of the people in Africatown were conceived on the Sandbar. (everyone laughing) So, that' ; s where they would go and my father would loan his car to his nephew and he would go to visit this girl, and they secretly got married (24:00), and her parents didn' ; t know it until she became pregnant because she still lived at home and he still lived with his parents, He went to the military. Except my father who would loan him his car, they(her parents) couldn' ; t understand how they had gotten married and she could conceived a child without them knowing because she was only allowed to go to school and church for choir practice (alone). That' ; s when they would see each other, after choir practice. Carpenter: So it sounds like you got a lot of good stuff during that research. Giles: Wonderful things, wonderful stories. Carpenter: Yeah. Giles: Wonderful love stories that I had never heard. ' ; Cause I only knew my parents love story, and it was a really wonderful one, too. Carpenter: Do you mind sharing it? Are you comfortable? Giles: My father had been married before, and she (his wife) died in childbirth. So, he had seen my mother and was very interested, Once a week he would go to visit (25:00) my grandfather so that he could have just a peek at his beloved Annie, and she would remain in the kitchen, but he could see her from the kitchen (meant living room). And (he) wondered just what it would be like to actually hold her hand. Finally one day, he was allowed to take her out to the water during one of the church picnics, but she was afraid of water and he knew that, so he led her into the water just above her ankles, and he promised her that if she would not say that she would marry him, that he would put his head under the water and he wouldn' ; t come up until he had drowned, and that she would have to then be in the water alone. So she consented to marry him. And she never, ever said that she loved him to anybody until he was dying (26:00). And then she said " ; I loved him all those years, but I never said it! I just said, ' ; He worked his roots and frightened me into consenting to marry him.' ; " ; And that' ; s the way we thought it was. But he agreed not to teach us to swim because of her fear, and he agreed not to teach us the Native American ways or to eat wild foods because she didn' ; t want us to become little wild Native American kids. Because she thought it was tough enough to be a descendant of one minority, but to have the practices and be the descendants of two minorities would be too difficult. Carpenter: So did you know much of your Native American family growing up? Giles: I knew the family. Carpenter: Okay. Giles: But not allowed to have the practices. Carpenter: `Okay, okay. And were you close with them? Giles: Very close, very close. Especially my Aunt Rita (27:00), and across the street was my father' ; s first cousin which was Mommee, so Mommee was another mother. My grandmother on my mother' ; s side was Mommee, and then we had a lot of Momma, like Momma Rosie. So, all of these were my mothers, which was kinda difficult as a child because you didn' ; t get away with anything. And when you did do something wrong, that lady would catch you and spank you and then take you to your mother, and then you got a spanking for making that woman have to stop her day to spank you and bring you home, and then you got another one for doing wrong. So it was horrible, having so many mothers. But now I see it was very wonderful. And that was one of the reasons I wanted my daughter to grow up in Hawai' ; i because every woman is your auntie (28:00) and every man is your uncle, so she had just as many eyes on her. Carpenter: So is that community that you kind of found in Hawai' ; i, is that similar to the community that you had growing up in Africatown? Giles: Very similar. The teachings are very similar, the sayings and the practices are very similar because they' ; re considered Native Americans as well. Carpenter: And is that part of what really drew you to- I mean, did you know that, that going there that that was gonna be part of what you would find? That similarity? Giles: No, I just knew it was home, and I needed to go home. Carpenter: And so as, you know, you' ; ve been moving around and kind of had your, you know, life in Hawai' ; i, did you stay in touch with your classmates at all during that time from Mobile County Training School? Giles: Just Anderson, and later I found Christine and Sandra, but it was through the community. Yeah, through the (29:00) MCTS newsletters and communications that were received. Carpenter: And so, what I guess is it like for you to be back here now, and what does this weekend mean to you? Giles: It' ; s wonderful. It' ; s wonderful seeing everybody. I was hesitant because I thought no one would recognize me and I wouldn' ; t recognize them. But I did, and so I' ; m so excited, yeah. It' ; s great being back, you know, and hugging and just holding the people that I was so close to for eighteen years of my life. Carpenter: And you went to the prom here, right? That- the first prom? Giles: Yes, yeah. Carpenter: What was that like? Giles: With Anderson Flen. Carpenter: Yeah, he told us, he told us. Giles: It was wonderful, but Anderson was so into philosiphying that he sat and watched this fountain and philosiphied the whole time (30:00). We only had one dance. Carpenter: (laughing) So, um, what does it mean then being back in the same building now fifty years later for the reunion? Giles: Um, it' ; s wonderful. My uncle was the bellhop here from age- I think it was fifteen- to the day he died. And he, he was Creole (black + French), most of the women in my family have last French names. I actually have married a man from Paris, but it was a Japanese arranged marriage in Hawai' ; i. It' ; s my second marriage. So it' ; s great to be back ; I wish I could see my uncle here and see him working, but I can' ; t, but it' ; s wonderful to have the memories (31:00), and to be in a place that I would not have been allowed in in earlier years of my life. Carpenter: Mhm. Um, great, well I don' ; t want to take up too much of your time, I don' ; t know if there' ; s anything you wanted to add at all about, I mean I' ; m sure you have so many more stories from the research you' ; ve done and stuff that you' ; ve heard growing up. Giles: I have lots of wonderful stories but I think it' ; s better now that I can look back on it. As a kid, I just knew it was, everybody was too strict and too- too much watching us- but looking back, it was wonderful growing up being secure, not having the fears that kids can have now, and just knowing you were loved. I, I- we grew up (32:00) by other standards as being poor, but we all thought we were wealthy. We thought that we were very, very wealthy. And now I know we were- it may not have been money, but we were prosperous. Carpenter: In what way? Giles: In the family connections, in the life we had, in the love and being a part of the whole. It was always said that if one can eat, all can eat. Our doors were never locked. My father would fish: the first fish went to widows, older women, then older men, then women with children and no husband. We got the tiny little bony fish, but we were convinced that those were the best fish because they were small, and they were sweeter. But in fact (33:00) they were the only leftovers. But everybody would eat, and because our door was not locked, when we ate there were two little boys that came in the door every morning and said to my mother, " ; Grits?" ; and they were fed, and anybody who walked in was fed. And I think that that was wonderful. And now where I live in Hawai' ; i, they say there' ; s always a space at our table, there' ; s always room for one more, even if you have to sleep on the floor. Just like at home, there' ; s always room for one more. And so, I live in love as I lived in love. Now I live in what' ; s called Aloha, where you share your breath, and if to share your breath, which is your ha, your spirit. That was how I grew up, sharing your spirit. Carpenter: And so, I' ; m curious also (34:00) this, this research you that you did about people' ; s love stories, if you have- if you' ; re planning on doing anything with everything that you collected. Giles: I just sold my house, my land, and everything, with the purpose of dedicating myself to writing and quilting because my mother was a quilter. Carpenter: But you' ; re gonna stay in Hawai' ; i? Is that your plan? Giles: I' ; m going to stay in Hawai' ; i. I love Hawai' ; i, and now I just have two homes. And I have an Ohana, which is a Hawai' ; i family, and I love them just as much as I love my birth family. It' ; s great to have two homes. Carpenter: Yeah. Alright. Well, unless you have anything else to add? Giles: Well, I could talk on and on, but I know there are others you must interview, so I look forward to sharing written documents (35:00) with you if you so wish? Carpenter: Yes, that' ; d be great, and we can give you actually our contact information so we can be in touch. Giles: Okay. That would be wonderful, and thank you for this opportunity, and thank you for doing this. Carpenter: Yeah. Thank you for your time, this was awesome. video 0 https://oberlincollegelibrary.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=
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Gloria Giles Nault
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Hawaii
Nursing.
Native American
Love Stories
Mobile County Training School
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video
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Oral History
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Nathan Carpenter
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Darron Patterson
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5.4 Darron Patterson Interview 1:23:08 Africatown Oberlin College Library Yoruba (African people) Clotilda (Ship) Direct Descendent Descendent Darron Patterson Nathan Carpenter 1:|18(3)|29(10)|42(16)|61(1)|72(2)|82(12)|93(7)|101(15)|110(9)|124(6)|135(11)|143(7)|163(10)|171(12)|184(9)|192(8)|201(8)|221(9)|231(3)|240(3)|250(14)|260(10)|274(4)|285(7)|294(5)|303(12)|312(6)|323(12)|332(16)|350(1)|361(3)|370(2)|379(2)|387(13)|397(2)|406(17)|416(13)|430(4)|439(8)|445(4)|457(3)|476(3)|484(3)|490(7)|499(5)|508(1)|515(4)|523(11)|534(8)|550(12)|566(5)|578(1)|587(11)|600(8)|612(1)|624(4)|638(3)|653(2)|660(15)|668(6)|677(9)|687(11)|696(9)|705(3)|718(9)|729(13)|738(11)|747(15)|758(12)|768(17)|778(13)|794(13)|805(10)|815(6)|827(10)|840(8)|854(5)|865(3)|874(17)|883(11)|897(1)|909(8)|922(2) 0 https://youtu.be/Z3HwbQOJgM8 YouTube video 0 Growing Up without History Well, that’s the interesting thing about it: they never told me anything. I had no clue who I was. Nobody ever told me that I was a Yoruban warrior. As a matter of fact, my family, my mother, vehemently denied that she was African. Patterson talks about growing up, not knowing much about his family's history. African ; Boat ; Clotilda ; County ; Descendent ; Descendents ; Detroit ; Henry Williams ; MCTS ; Mobile ; School ; Texas ; Training ; Yoruba African ; Ancestors ; Awareness. ; Descendants ; Descent ; Mobile (Ala.) ; Warrior ; Yoruba (African people) 385 Organizing the Descendants And once they found the boat, it was imperative that descendants organize themselves. Now, there had been an organization before us that was the, I can’t think of the exact name, it was the, African Descendants from the Boat of the Clotilda, that type of thing. Patterson talks about organizing the descendants and dealing with other similar organizations. 501(c)3 ; ACDC ; Africatown ; Attorney ; Boat ; CHESS ; Clotilda ; Clotilda Society ; Descendants ; Jesus ; Jocelyn Davis ; MCTSAA ; Organize ; spokespersons ; Unite Clotilda (ship) ; Descendants ; Descent 733 Teaching and Learning the Story That’s what the descendants are charged with right now: we have to make sure our story’s told right, the museum correctly illustrates the story, and that the story never dies. Patterson talks about the descendants' goals and his experience learning about Yoruban warriors. Africa ; Agriculture ; Community ; Cotton ; crop ; Dahomey ; Documentary ; Farmers ; Goal ; History ; Margaret Brown ; Meaher ; Meaher family ; Museum ; Prey ; Reading ; Realization ; Representation ; rich ; Story ; Yoruban ; Yoruban Warrior Descendants ; Descent ; Education. ; History ; Warrior ; Yoruba (African people) 1051 Reopening the Case Nothing is going to be right and made right until there’s truth and reconciliation. I thought that was outstanding. The truth is out, the reconciliation is acknowledged that it happened. Now go from there. Patterson talks about swabbing the boat for evidence, and how he believes the Meahers should approach the community. Acquit ; Attorney ; Boat ; Brian Stevenson ; Captain Foster ; case ; crime ; criminals ; dismissed ; DNA ; Evidence ; Judge ; Karlos Finley ; Lack ; Lack of Evidence ; Meaher ; reconciliation ; reinstate ; relatives ; reparations ; rich ; swab ; talk ; Trial ; truth Ancestors ; Clotilda (Ship) ; Descendants ; Descent ; National geographic ; Reconciliation. ; Truth. 1346 Community Structures with African Roots So they had time to watch the white man, and say how he did things, and I don’t know how much of that entered into the way they set up their community once they did, but for the most part, once they set up their community, it was still by the same structure that they had come from in Africa. Patterson talks about how African community structures are still in place and names the leaders in the current Africatown community. A.C.D.C. ; ACDC ; Africa ; African roots ; Alumni ; Anderson Flen ; C.H.E.S.S. ; CHESS ; Cleon Jones ; community ; complement ; Detroit ; Dreams of Africa in Alabama ; emotion ; family ; Following ; hierarchy ; job ; Jocelyn ; Joe Womack ; leaders ; MCTS ; men ; organization ; Pollee ; Roles ; Roots ; society ; structure ; Sylviane Diouf ; Technical writer ; tribe ; women Africa. ; Descendants ; Mobile County Training School ; Yoruba (African people) 1781 Unifying the Clotilda Descendants Association We have to be a unified group, and that’s what I’m tryin to get people to understand now: we have to be a unified group. It’s comin’ but it’s slow, but I see it coming. Patterson talks about getting the Clotilda Descendants Association running again, using technology to spread the word, and challenges he's faced reinventing the group. Africatown ; Alan Bozeman ; Board of Directors ; Clotilda ; Clotilda Descendants Association ; descendants ; Doug Jones ; Election ; facebook ; group ; identify ; information ; instagram ; Jocelyn ; meetings ; organizations ; Pogue-lee ; Pollee ; Senator Jones ; steering committee ; technology ; Theodore Arthur ; twitter ; unified ; unify ; website Awareness ; Clotilda (Ship) ; Communication. ; Descendants ; Descent 2239 The Clotilda Site I’m overcome knowing that that is the site where they were at. Now, I could feel it from my toes to my head, and we were also talkin’ on camera about, thinkin about a two month journey, sixty days, in the whole of a ship, stacked like lumber, having to eat where you slept, and sleep where you defecated, and only be able to go up on the deck of the ship one day, one hour a day. Patterson talks about his reaction when he was brought to the site where the Clotilda ship was found. Ben Raines ; boat ; Jim delGado ; journalist ; overcome ; Search Incorporated ; ship ; site ; swamp ; travel Ancestors ; Clotilda (Ship) ; Descendants ; National geographic 2484 Reinventing the Community I think reinvention of the community would be great. It would be great to have a museum and housing and parks, theme parks and that kind of stuff to make that community whole again. Patterson talks about reinventing the community with a replica of the ship, developing pride, and how old Mobile money runs the town. Admiral Sam's Hotel ; Africatown ; Augustine Meaher ; Baltimore ; cargo hold ; centerpiece ; city ; Cleveland ; come back ; community ; descendant ; destination ; Detroit ; dialogue ; Dog Track ; grandson ; Gulfquest ; Gus Meaher ; mayor ; MCTS ; Meaher ; Mobile ; Mobile County Training School ; money ; museum ; parks ; pride ; Raddison ; reinvent ; Repair ; replica ; ship ; site ; slaves ; support ; Timothy Meaher Awareness ; Clotilda (Ship) ; Communication. ; Descendants ; Descent ; Education. ; History. ; Mobile (Ala.) ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) 3019 Truth, Reconciliation, and Education Truth and reconciliation. I would love for us and the Meahers just to be able to talk. You can’t take back what happened. Can’t do it. So let’s figure out a way forward that’s best for everybody. Patterson talks again about truth and reconciliation, and about educating the young people in the community. 45 ; Charlottesville ; descendant ; divided ; Edict ; education ; evidence ; history ; intertwined ; Jocelyn ; Meahers ; mission ; money ; never forget ; Portland ; president ; racial ; reconciliation ; story ; talk ; truth ; unify ; Yoruba Communication. ; Descendants ; descent ; Education. ; History. ; Reconciliation. ; Truth. ; Yoruba (African people) 3421 Non-Descendants Roles in Africatown Eric Finley has a tour that he does called the Dora Finley Trail it’s a trail of markers that denote the slave trade and stops for the underground railroad and that type thing that his family was directly involved in. I get calls all the time now because of my number, that number on the website actually rings to this phone, about people wanting tours of Africatown. Patterson talks about the Finleys and tours of Africatown. Africatown ; Alumni ; alumni association ; C.H.E.S.S. ; descendant ; Dora Finley Trail ; Doug Jones ; Eric Finley ; Finley ; grants ; Industry ; International Paper Company ; Joe Womack ; Karlos Finley ; locations ; Mama Thelma ; Mama Thelma Shamburger ; markers ; midwife ; Plateau ; Scott Paper Company ; Senate ; sites ; slave trade ; Tour ; underground railroad Descendants ; descent ; History. ; Plateau (Mobile, Ala.) 3843 Patterson's Roles in Africatown I am proud to be who I am. I’m proud to be a descendant, I’m proud to be a leader, and I don’ like to use the word leader, I’m more a facilitator of the group, because people “I’m in charge”. I’m not in charge, I’m just a guy. I am, I’m just a guy. Patterson talks about writing blogs, facilitating groups, and working with others to make change. 60 day journey ; Anderson Flen ; blog ; C.H.E.S.S. ; Danny Glover ; delGado ; descendant ; Detroit ; engineer ; English ; excavate ; facilitator ; Finley ; Joe Womack ; journalist ; leader ; MEJAC ; Predator 2 ; Ramsey ; ship ; slave ; story ; website ; wheel ; writer ; writing ; zoning Clotilda (Ship) ; Communication. ; Descendants ; Mobile (Ala.) 4295 Journalism and Career “Did you hear what I said? I want to go to sports.” So I went to sports, and the rest was history for twenty years. I wrote sports, I covered the Pistons when they hit back-to-backs in Detroit, covered Barry Sanders, covered the Tigers. Patterson talks about his journalism career, working in newspaper, doing sports writing and technical writing. 1978 ; Barry Sanders ; Bayou LaBatre ; city council ; Coast Guard ; communicate ; dad ; Daphne ; Dauphin Street ; Detroit ; DJ ; editor ; El Paso ; F1 ; Ford Motor Company ; Gussie Wentzell ; Hockey ; Indy Car ; Inner City News ; interpret ; Labor Time Standards ; Mass communications ; Nascar ; newspaper ; Old South ; Open Meetings Law ; Penske ; Pistons ; press ; project management ; Roger Penske ; Roush Racing ; shrimp boat ; sports ; Sun Technicom ; switcher ; technical writing ; television ; TV ; United States Sports Academy ; weed ; write ; WT& ; H Communication. ; Descendants ; Education. ; Journalism. ; Mobile (Ala.) Oral History Darron Patterson Oral History Interview Nathan Carpenter: This is Nathan Carpenter with Oberlin College and the Africatown Oral History Digital Archive. We' ; re here in Mobile, Alabama on Wednesday, October 23, 2019. I' ; m here with Mr. Darron Patterson- Darron Patterson: Yeah, here we are. Carpenter: With the Clotilda Descendants Association, and we are joined by Santiago Roman, Isabel Tadmiri, Imani Badillo, and Havi Carrillo-Klein also with Oberlin College. I just want to say on the record that Mr. Patterson this interview is your property and you are free to choose to not answer any questions, to pause the interview at any time, or to just end the interview at any time and that' ; s totally up to your discretion. I guess I would like to ask, Mr. Patterson, to begin by saying when and where you were born. Patterson: I was born here in Mobile in Plateau. Plateau is what Africatown used to be called before all the things started happening that made it Africatown. We only knew it as Plateau, and I was born there in 1952, right on the big bridge highway, the road that goes across that big bridge that you see. Yeah. Carpenter: What do you know about how your family first came to Plateau or Africatown? Patterson: Well, that' ; s the interesting thing about it: they never told me anything. I had no clue who I was. Nobody ever told me that I was a Yoruban warrior. As a matter of fact, my family, my mother, vehemently denied that she was African. As things went on, I now understand that they were more interested in where we were going than where we came from. I think they might have been a little bit embarrassed. I have cousins whose relatives embraced it and told them everything. You heard of Momma Eva? Eva Jones? Carpenter: I think so. Patterson: Eva Jones was really cool, and Henry Williams was way cool, but they told us Henry Williams was crazy. " ; Oh, he' ; s crazy, don' ; t listen to Henry Williams." ; So, we didn' ; t listen to him because they said he was crazy. And then, you did what your parents told you to do. I wish I had listened to Henry Williams because he knew a lot more than a lot of people did. And Henry tried to tell us who we were. So, like I said, I didn' ; t pay attention to that, and I went on through my life not really knowing the history of how we got to where we were and who I was. That is disheartening for me now. It was okay then because what I didn' ; t know I didn' ; t know. But now I wish I had known because I could have, I could have done something, you know? I could' ; ve documented something, dug a little further, found out more about who I was but as it turns out it' ; s okay, it' ; s okay. Carpenter: So did you grow up with any stories about the Clotilda of Benin? Patterson: Not one, not one, not one. I didn' ; t know anything about it at all, and like I said, Henry Williams was the closest thing that I knew. My mother, my aunts, my older sisters, not one. I didn' ; t know anything about the history of that community. Carpenter: So when did you first begin to have an awareness of the history? Patterson: When I was in Detroit. Carpenter: Okay. Patterson: I left Mobile in ' ; 66. I was in the ninth grade, my father worked at Brookley Air Force Base, and they closed the Air Force Base and moved all the persons that were there around the country. My father decided to Corpus Christi because it was the closest thing to Mobile that he found. And my mother was from Mobile and had never been out of Mobile, so he moved to the town that was the closest thing to Mobile he could find. The only thing that was different about Corpus Christi was that it had Chicanos, and I had never been around anything but Black people, and neither had my father or my mother. So, for me it was easy because I was able to read about the culture and know who they were and know what Mexicans were about and people of Spanish culture. My father was a little bit different: he, it took him a minute to embrace that culture. So, once we went to Texas, I graduated in Texas, went to school, went to college in Texas, and on the way here after I graduated, my father had moved back here, my mother had moved back here, and I told my father I was on my way to WTnH in New Haven, Connecticut because I was on television and my sister had a job set up for me there. So I stopped through Mobile on the way there to see my folks and told my Pop, I said, " ; Well I' ; ll take you to the Superbowl next year," ; and he died that night, just suddenly. So, here I am, boom, in Mobile. So once here in Mobile, I started to hear things: Africatown this, Clotilda this and that. And then I started runnin' ; into relatives of mine who started telling me different things, but I was still into other things like sports as a sports writer and that type of thing. And then I left Mobile in ' ; 88 and went to Detroit and started working for the Detroit News. Once I got there, the interesting part was I met a guy who was a history buff. And when he found out I was from Mobile, he started saying, Oh you know Mobile' ; s famous and slave ship and blah blah blah so I started readin' ; . And I was like wow, I' ; m a Yoruban warrior, you know? I wanted to run around and do things. I didn' ; t know what I was gonna do, but I was gonna do things you know whatever Yoruban warriors do. So, I started reading more, reading more, and when I came back to Mobile in 2009, everything was Africatown, Africatown, Africatown. I' ; d run into my relatives and they' ; re tellin' ; me this and that, so I started reading, and I' ; m like " ; wow, this is really really cool." ; And started runnin into people that were cousins and people I didn' ; t know and people that I would' ; ve graduated with in that last class of 1970. And they started talkin' ; about all this Africatown stuff, and I just kind of embraced it. But I still wasn' ; t very active in meetings and stuff like that because I had too much to do. I was pretty busy. And then they found the boat, and everything blew up, man. And once they found the boat, it was imperative that descendants organize themselves. Now, there had been an organization before us that was the, I can' ; t think of the exact name, it was the, African Descendants from the Boat of the Clotilda, that type of thing. Well, those were older people who did that, it was Beatrice Ellis was the organizer of that group, and she passed away, she was a really good lady, my cousin. And the group was fairly dormant. Well, when they found the boat, everything started just blowin up and going crazy, so it was really important that the descendants organize ourselves. And I met Joycelyn Davis, and Joycleyn is really cool, she' ; s a cool lady, but at this point we needed some whoop-ass, and so I have a lot of skills and I can do a lot of things, so whoop-ass has to be one of em. So me and Joycelyn joined forces, and we actually complement each other. She' ; s my balance: when I' ; m in a tree, she talks me down out a tree. She never gets in a tree, so I never a chance to talk her down, so I just stay in trees all the time because I' ; m just, you know, that' ; s just me. And we organized ourselves, a 501(c)3, a website, a intellectual property attorney, hired that lady. We did everything we needed to do to protect ourselves. We developed a logo if you' ; ve ever been to our website, we have a beautiful website: theclotildastory.com with the ship and the 110 as the sails on the ship, we copywrote that. We did everything we needed to do because now, and it' ; s a good thing we did because now, we' ; re runnin into a lot of charlatans, a lot of faith people, I heard there are people all the way in New York representin' ; themselves as spokespersons of the Clotilda. Have I gone off track? Carpenter: Not at all. Patterson: Okay and they were up there representin' ; themselves as the Clotilda society. So I had to get our attorney involved in that and she told us to stay the course, make sure your profile stays high, and once we go to court if they' ; re out here confusing people, we have a great chance of winning whatever we take to court. So it' ; s really sad for me that I have to go through that because we all should be on one accord And unfortunately it' ; s just not, you know. I heard this great joke: there was these three people, and St. Peter said, the first person that tells Jesus something he can' ; t answer goes straight to heaven. So, the white guy goes up and says somethin' ; to Jesus and Jesus is like " ; I know that,' ; ' ; so St. Peter said go to Hell. Mexican guy says to Jesus and Jesus is like " ; oh man I know that." ; So the Black guy says to Jesus and Jesus is like " ; wow I don' ; t know if I can answer that," ; and St. Peter says " ; okay, you can go straight to heaven." ; He says " ; by the way, what did you ask Jesus?" ; He said " ; I asked him when are Black people gonna come together." ; Made a lot of sense to me because for some reason, we cannot seem to come together, and it bothers me a lot. We' ; ve got C.H.E.S.S. Joe Womack' ; s group, we got A.C.D.C Cleon Jones' ; group, we have MCTSAA the alumni association with Anderson Flen, and then you have us, the descendants. That' ; s four groups of people who should all come to the table and organize ourselves so that we' ; re strong as a unit. We can' ; t seem to get on the same foot, either three of us want to do it and one doesn' ; t or, but we' ; re workin on it. So that' ; s good. All is not lost, we' ; re workin on it. And we need to do that for the sake of bein' ; able to put up a unified front for this community and this administration downtown. We don' ; t need to be runnin' ; around acting like we' ; re individuals. So I might' ; ve got off track a little bit. Carpenter: Not at all. Patterson: Sorry about that. Carpenter: So it seems like even though you weren' ; t taught this history when you were younger that you feel it is important to continue to teach and pass on to future generations? Patterson: Oh, absolutely. Carpenter: Can you speak about that? Patterson: Absolutely, I mean it' ; s our history. It' ; s- right now we have an opportunity to do what wasn' ; t done for us. And that is to make sure that my kids, my grandkids, their grandkids, know who they are. Know who you are and where you came from, that' ; s all important. That' ; s really important, and we' ; re on a good road to doin that but it' ; s really important that they stay that way and stay that course. So right now what the descendants charge is to make sure the story' ; s told right and second make sure the museum represents us correctly and is laid out in a way that tells the story. If you go to museums, good museums are very well thought out most of the time in terms of how they' ; re laid out and they tell the story. That' ; s what the descendants are charged with right now: we have to make sure our story' ; s told right, the museum correctly illustrates the story, and that the story never dies. We have some documentaries that we' ; ve done, one in particular is bein' ; done by Margaret Brown, she' ; s a filmmaker, and more than likely her film is gonna end up at cons. When that happens, we are prepared--the descendants--to go all around the world if necessary for fulfilling speaking engagements to tell our story to be sure our story is there and never dies. That' ; s our goal. Carpenter: So you talk about making sure that people know the history of the community and who they are. Can you talk about that, you know, when you--you were saying that later in life you discovered that you were a Yoruban warrior--what that realization was like and what it meant to you? Patterson: Well I started readin' ; about Yorubans. I started reading about who they were and man I was proud, I was like " ; wow, these guys are some bad stuff, man," ; I was like " ; alright I' ; m a Yoruban warrior" ; you know what I mean? And farmers, which is part of the reason them coming here on the boat helped the Meaher family because they were farmers. I mean, among other things. And they helped them cultivate and grow their cotton crop, it helped them get rich, we' ; ll get to that later. It helped them get rich ; they actually showed them a lot of ways to make their crop better, get their crop to market faster, and they were pretty good people. If you look in the book you' ; ll see the ladies had their specific tasks, the gentlemen had their specific tasks, and it was all very organized. I just hate that they were taking away from--I mean, I think about them sitting on the west coast of Africa and they were probably watchin' ; ESPN or something, nobody' ; s botherin' ; them, and here comes the Dahomeys. The Dahomeys actually had a great plan: they could get rid of the competition by enslaving the rival tribe, us, and then sell us to the white man who had gotten wind of the discord goin on over in Africa, and get rich off of it. The ironic thing I tell people now is that when we can' ; t come together today, that' ; s the same way we got here. That' ; s what bothers me. When we can' ; t come together as one, I tell people " ; wait a minute! This how we got here in the first place." ; Once they saw some discord in what we were doin, it made us easy prey. Does that make sense? Yeah, it made us easy prey. So, I really forgot what you asked me. Carpenter: No, that was helpful. And you were speaking about the original people who were brought to Africatown were farmers and had this body of agricultural knowledge. Patterson: Partly farmers, among other things. Carpenter: And you said- among other things. Patterson: Yeah. Carpenter: And you were talking about how that helped not only the beginnings of Africatown but also the Meaher family get rich. Patterson: Mhm. Now, I was talkin to- have you talked to Karlos Finley? Carpenter: Mm-mm. Patterson: Karlos Finley is a attorney here, and he is a judge, a municipal judge, part-time or something, I don' ; t know how that works. And we were talking about statute of limitations. National Geographic, Captain Foster and Timothy Meaher were put on trial, you know that. And they were, I' ; ve heard they were acquitted, I' ; ve heard the case was dismissed for lack of evidence. If the case was dismissed for lack of evidence, National Geographic wants to swab the whole of the boat that was sunk down in the river, in the sand up the river, and they want to swab the descendants. And there' ; s a possibility that if part of that, from what I understand, DNA is underneath the sand where it' ; s not disturbed, once they start excavating, they actually can find DNA there. That' ; s what I was told, I' ; m not an expert. And I was takin' ; to Mr. Finley, Judge Finley, and he said that there' ; s actually possibly a case for if the case was dismissed for lack of evidence there actually might be a case to now have it reinstated if there is complete evidence of a crime. The boat would be the crime, the evidence of the crime. I thought that was fascinating. It' ; s probably far fetched, but I don' ; t put anything past legal people, man. I don' ; t put anything past, I don' ; t put anything past nothing, really. And if NatGeo is gonna swab the whole, I' ; m all for it, go do it man, swab me. Let' ; s find out where we can go from here, because like I' ; ve said before when we were talkin' ; off camera, I don' ; t want anything from the Meahers. As a matter of fact, I feel bad that the Meahers are being unfairly drawn and quartered for something that their relatives did. They didn' ; t have anything to do with what their great-great-grandfathers did. Just like I didn' ; t have anything to do with what mine did. And they' ; re being unfairly treated now as the criminals for something that their relatives did. But where I have an issue with the Meahers--I put myself in their position and say if it was me what would I do?--I' ; d come forward and say " ; how you doin my name is Darron, our lives are forever intertwined, there' ; s nothin' ; I can do about what my grandfather did, but do you want to go have a beer? Do you want to talk? And by the way we' ; re filthy rich, is there anything that we can do to--what' ; s pressing in this community right now that we can help with?" ; I mean, that' ; s me, it' ; s obviously not the Meahers. But that' ; s the way that I would approach it. I would approach it that I can' ; t make up for something that my relatives did, but you know we kind of got rich off the backs of your ancestors. I feel like I owe you something for that, so let me help in some way. That' ; s what I' ; m lookin' ; for. That' ; s what would make it right for me. Now believe me, we got people that are saying, " ; give me my money" ; --well how' ; s that gonna work? How is that gonna work? Who gets what, and how much do you get, and what about the descendant in Bangkok, how much does he get? And in Yugoslavia, how much does he get? How much does she get? I don' ; t see the reparations thing working, I think there' ; s another way this could work. Brian Stevenson who has the museum and the thing we talked about in Montgomery, he has a documentary and in his documentary he said that nothing is going to be right and made right until there' ; s truth and reconciliation. I thought that was outstanding. The truth is out, the reconciliation is acknowledged that it happened. It' ; s really simple, it' ; s really not that hard. It happened, and we acknowledge that it happened. Now go from there. Carpenter: And so, you were kind of, to return to the research that you said you started, did you after learning about the history of your family and the history of the community, you were talking about the agriculture and the very particular roles that different people would play in the community. Did you see in your research any way that those things were kind of pulled from the original African roots of the community? Patterson: Oh yeah. Carpenter: And how did you see that? Patterson: Well just by the separation of things, the things that the women did: they cooked, they cleaned, they sewed, they did this. And then the men went and did this and, pretty much all like today. I mean, not all like that because that' ; s not right. I didn' ; t mean like women should clean, sorry. I didn' ; t mean that. It' ; s kind of like today, the man' ; s role. My role is to make sure my family survives whether my wife works or not. Not that her job isn' ; t important, but my role the way I was taught by my father is you make sure this family survives. And that' ; s pretty much society I think ; it' ; s not a race thing, it' ; s a society thing I think. But they took it to a different level because that' ; s the way the tribe was: there was a hierarchy to the men, there was a hierarchy to the women. And when they got here they implemented the same, they implemented what they knew. Now the interesting part is, they were here for three years, five years, somebody told me, before, I think it was five years before slavery was abolished. So they had time to watch the white man, and say how he did things, and I don' ; t know how much of that entered into the way they set up their community once they did, but for the most part, once they set up their community, it was still by the same structure that they had come from in Africa. I was readin' ; parts of Sylviane Diouf' ; s book, Dreams of Africa in Alabama, and she talked about that. She talked about how they set it up this way, they did this, there were leaders. You always have to have a leader, my great-great-grandfather was one of the leaders. I think that' ; s where--I don' ; t go out to lead, I don' ; t go out to say " ; I' ; m gonna take care of this, I got this." ; I don' ; t go out there. But it just does, it comes naturally to me. I also follow very well, but I lead a whole lot better. And I really believe it has something to do with that guy, Pollee. I really believe it had somethin' ; to do with what' ; s inside of me, and my DNA, and the way I approach things. I have no problem bein' ; the person you put out in front for people to shoot at because I' ; m gonna shoot back. I plan on being on target, and you have to have those people. And that' ; s what I was sayin' ; about Joycelyn, me and Joycelyn talked about this. She is the face of our descendants organization, she' ; s little and cute and everything and nobody want to hurt her or bother her, and then there' ; s me, who I' ; m not gonna let anything happen to Joycelyn, okay? I think that' ; s the way to go. Anderson Flen is the face of the Mobile County Training School Alumni Organization, Anderson Flen. He is the man. Joe Womack is the man, with C.H.E.S.S., okay? He is the man. Cleon Jones is the man with A.C.D.C. Joycelyn, she is the descendant to me. She is the face of what we should be. She' ; s smart, she' ; s go-get-it-ness, she has a go-get-it-ness about her, but she lacks somethin' ; that I have. Now, the other thing is I was raised by women too, so I got a lot of woman in me, you know? I told this guy in Detroit one time, he was an engineer for Ford, and I was a technical writer, and I told him, I said " ; here' ; s your part on the car and here' ; s how it works." ; He said, " ; That' ; s not how my part works," ; he said, " ; you' ; re stupid." ; And I started cryin, i was like " ; oh, he called me stupid," ; I said " ; now look, I was raised by women, I' ; ll scratch your eyes out and keep movin like nothin ever happened." ; And he became my best friend ' ; cause I told him I have a lot of woman in me, and the good thing is, you need that woman thing in you sometimes. That woman thing is awesome. It' ; s emotion, it' ; s whoop-ass, it' ; s a lot of stuff, and a lot of guys don' ; t have that woman thing in them, they' ; re all macho man. Yeah okay. I cry, and I will whoop your ass if I need to. My momma was like that, she was very, very sweet, but my daddy knew how far to go. When my daddy died, my mom had started doin' ; all these things that i didn' ; t know she knew how to do: pay bills, la la la. And I asked her, I said " ; I didn' ; t know you knew how to do all this stuff." ; She said " ; let me tell you something: a smart woman makes a man feels like he' ; s in control, even if he' ; s not." ; I have never forgotten that, ever. Never. Never! I thought that was awesome, I was like " ; my mom." ; i thought that was alright. So, a lot of these things you have to take from these old people man and what they gave you. I watch Joycelyn operate, I watch her a lot. And where she' ; s weak, I' ; ll talk to her about some things, and she' ; ll talk to me too. I listen, and I pay attention, and for the most part I hear it, and if I feel like I need to implement it, I do. But I hear what she says, and we' ; re good for each other. We complement each other, and it' ; s gonna take where we' ; re trying to go with these descendants a long way. They follow us, they tell us " ; we' ; re followin' ; y' ; all." ; That' ; s a good thing. We talk about that all the time, I say " ; man, they followin' ; us!" ; like, yeah I know! That' ; s good, so I don' ; t know if I got off track again. You know, I get off track a lot. Carpenter: No, it' ; s all good, it' ; s all good. Patterson: Alright. Carpenter: So, I' ; m guessing, I' ; m curious about this experience after the Clotilda was found, assembling this group of descendants. What was that process like? Was there a sense of kind of like connection that was developed within the descendants? Patterson: It was crazy, man. People were crazy. They were out of their mind. So, and this is what we' ; ve got goin on now: the older group that was formed before. So, Theodore Arthur is my cousin, he along with Miss Beatrice Ellis formed the older group that was, you know, back then and dormant. So, I knew that we had to get this group goin so I called Theodore, I said " ; Theodore," ; I said " ; now Theodore, we gotta get this group going man," ; and Theodore was like maybe in his seventies, and " ; we' ; ve got to get this group going" ; and Theodore was like " ; look man," ; he played saxophone, and he' ; s a very loaded local musician, and he says " ; man I don' ; t have time," ; he says, " ; look, you take it, and you run with it." ; I' ; m like okay, I got this. So, I started getting this group together and we had the descendants and then some of them said " ; well I' ; m part of Theodore Arthur' ; s group." ; I' ; m like, wait a minute, wait a minute. We' ; re all in the same group. We shortened the name, Clotilda Descendants Association, from Africatown People from Mars and Jupiter that were on the Clotilda, whatever it was man. It was too long. We whittled it down to somethin' ; that rolled off the tongue. We have a great website, I love our website. A good guy put it together, Alan Bozeman, for me, he did my personal website, and he' ; s done others. So, you know, these folks didn' ; t understand that now we don' ; t pass out flyers, you know? We have a Twitter, Facebook, you know, Instagram, and have a Cashapp on there, have a big Donate button on the website. And I' ; m fairly technologically savvy because I had to reinvent myself over the years from sports writer to project manager to whatever man, I got to do a lot of stuff, and I' ; m blessed to do that because God has given me the skills and talent to do that, and the know how to understand the need to understand that I have to do this to stay relevant. So, here I am at 67 year old, and people tellin' ; me how I look 57-years-old, which I will take that, and move on, and I' ; m still technologically relevant to still make sense in this world. That was the problem I was having to convey to the older people. Me and Joycelyn have legs, you know what I mean? Legs. We can do things. We don' ; t print flyers and say, we don' ; t pick up the phone and say, we text and we Instagram, we Facebook, and we, you know, FaceTime. So, I had a problem with the older folks thinking we were trying to do things differently and we had two different organizations. I' ; m still goin through that with them. It' ; s getting better. We' ; re going to have election of offices and the board of directors and it is what it is, you know? And I' ; m trying my best not to make them feel like we' ; re cutting them out. We' ; re all descendants. I' ; m also not gonna baby ' ; em. We can' ; t afford to baby them. We got people out there tryin' ; to imitate this and tryin' ; to get money from Clotilda this and Africatown that. And we got to be vigilant. I tell the descendants all the time that if you see something, say something. I got a guy in Montgomery, my cousin, he did an interview with a local TV station, and he changed Pollee' ; s name to Pogue-lee because his last name is Pogue. And I was upset with the interviewer in Montgomery because she didn' ; t call to verify any of this. You know, we' ; ll pick up where I left off. We don' ; t want those people who started this journey to feel like we' ; re cuttin' ; them out. But what my cousin did, well he said " ; oh Darron, you take it and you run with it, you go." ; You know, I don' ; t know if he knew the extent that I would do that. We didn' ; t have time to check in with him and say " ; Theodore, I' ; m doin this now" ; and " ; Theodore we' ; re doin that." ; Well, around Labor Day, I was watching the morning news and Theodore comes on the TV and says " ; I am the president of the Clotilda Descendants Association, and I am having a benefit concert, blah blah blah." ; That didn' ; t set real well with me because the last thing we need to show is a crack in the armor, especially in this administration that' ; s doing nothing for us. Especially to the people like Doug Jones' ; office, Senator Jones, who is gonna appropriate some money and who has done that for us. We have to be a unified group, and that' ; s what I' ; m tryin to get people to understand now: we have to be a unified group. It' ; s comin' ; but it' ; s slow, but I see it coming. I see it coming. So, with that in mind, it hasn' ; t been easy. We have a steering committee of six people who meet every Wednesday at five o' ; clock. Two of them are out of town, one' ; s in Dallas, one' ; s in Philly, and they dial in and we talk. And the steering committee is the one who is guiding and building this ship, and we' ; re about to have our first all descendants meeting. We' ; re trying to identify everybody. I have a portal on the website that takes a password to get into that only information that descendants need to know is there. You' ; ll fill out a form and send it in and my webmaster will send you a password to get in, and on that site I' ; ve put different things for the descendants. And I include everybody so they see what' ; s happenin, they understand what' ; s happenin, and they have access to what' ; s happening. These are the kind of things that we' ; re tryin to say in 2019: this is how we' ; re gonna do this. We can' ; t print out a flyer and go put it up on a bulletin board for somebody to see it, we can' ; t pick up the phone and call everybody, so hopefully, hopefully they see what we' ; re doin and just jump on it. Some of them are doing it, some of them are, most of them are, there' ; s just a couple out there stragglin' ; . We' ; re gettin' ; there. Carpenter: I have one more question about the Clotila specifically? I' ; m curious to just, you as, you know, Darron Patterson, what that moment when it was found was like? Patterson: I wish I could show you the interview when I met up with Ben Raines. Have you met Ben Raines? You need to meet Ben Raines. Ben Raines is actually the guy who found the ship. I know that Jim delGado and Search Incorporated was said they found the ship, but Ben Raines is actually the guy who found the ship. He' ; s a local journalist working at the press registry, he' ; s an environmental guy. But Ben Raines showed me where the site was, and I was mentionin' ; this at the table out there about how I felt when I saw the site, I' ; m like " ; wow, this is the site man where they brought the boat and says ' ; okay, get your asses off' ; you know, ' ; because we gotta burn this boat!' ; " ; And they told them just to get off: no shoes, some women were probably carrying babies, the men were tryin to keep up with their families through a swamp with alligators, snakes, and bears. When I saw that, I saw myself on camera and I didn' ; t even know that I had become, that I was overcome like that. I' ; m overcome knowing that that is the site where they were at. Now, I could feel it from my toes to my head, and we were also talkin' ; on camera about, thinkin about a two month journey, sixty days, in the whole of a ship, stacked like lumber, having to eat where you slept, and sleep where you defecated, and only be able to go up on the deck of the ship one day, one hour a day. No, one day a week for however long. That was only so your muscles wouldn' ; t atrophy, and you would become less valuable cargo. Think about that. I do. My oldest son says, " ; Papa, I just wouldn' ; t stand for that," ; and I said, " ; What would you have done?" ; It makes you just want to, I don' ; t know. That' ; s less than human. That' ; s less than human to treat somebody like that. You know what I mean? So, that' ; s the way I feel. And I was talkin' ; to somebody and they said, " ; It' ; s easy for somebody to treat you like that if they classify you as less than human." ; So it' ; s eas: once they classified us as less than human, then we could be treated like dogs. Anyway, I' ; m sorry. Carpenter: No. Patterson: Right. Carpenter: And we already talked about this a little, or you touched on this a little already, but moving forward, when it comes to the Africatown community and the Descendants Association, what do you think that repair looks like for what has been done? Patterson: The repair? Carpenter: The repair of what' ; s been, so of the Clotilda itself and then anything that has happened to the Africatown community since then. Patterson: I' ; m a little confused. Say it again? Carpenter: I' ; m curious what you think in, you know, what you shared and then other things that have happened to the Africatown community throughout time Patterson: Mm-hmm. Carpenter: What does repairing that look like? Patterson: I' ; m really not sure. I know that buildings are not it totally. A sense of pride in the community. Man, I remember growin' ; up, and it was a great, fun place to be, you know, as a kid. Everybody knew everybody. E' ; rybody looked out for e' ; rybody, everybody cared about everybody. It was a fun place to be. Mobile County Training School, Whitley Elementary School, and Mobile County Training School was a fun place to go. And now, as I look back on it, I think about all the people that were there, and I' ; m gonna get back to your question, but I' ; m just thinkin about it, there was a sense of something, and we didn' ; t talk about it among ourselves as kids, so I' ; m sure that a lot of people didn' ; t talk to them about who they were. It' ; d be great to get that back, but you know, you can' ; t get that back anywhere in the country. This place, this world has moved on. I don' ; t know if repair is the right word, or reinvent. We believe if we can- there' ; s a housing project over there, Josephine Allen. We' ; re lookin' ; at that site and tryin' ; to acquire that site to put a replica of the ship and a man made lake with a walkway where you can circle the ship and walk down. And the bottom of the boat is glass so you can actually see into the cargo hold with the slaves in the cargo hold. If that is an anchor and a centerpiece to the community that we can put housing around, businesses around. I' ; m saying those are the kind of things that help rebuild a city, a community. I lived in Detroit for twenty years, and Detroit now is really on the way back. Cleveland, Cleveland man. I am really impressed with what' ; s happening in Cleveland. Everybody says Lebron did it, and he probably did have a lot to do with it. But, the river on fire jokes are gone now, you know? Oh, the river' ; s on fire in Cleveland, you know? The river really was on fire. But those things are gone now. Cleveland has come back, Baltimore has come back. And they' ; ve done it in different ways through different mechanisms. Mobile has an opportunity to have a destination. There' ; s a building downtown called Gulfquest. Have you seen it? It looks like a ship. It' ; s a maritime museum. I don' ; t know what jackass signed off on this, but you have to be a destination city to have something like that for people to come to see. Mobile is not a destination city. New Orleans is a destination city, New York, Cleveland to a degree, Detroit to a degree, LA. Those are destination cities, those are places where people go for a reason, and it' ; s a beautiful museum made just like a ship right by the cruise tunnel. But nobody goes there. Nobody goes there, there' ; s nothing to go and see, and this community can' ; t support that, you know? Africatown. Africatown could be something special if this city decided it wanted it to be special. But again, slavery ain' ; t sexy man, and it ain' ; t cool. But the right forward thinking person could get it done. I' ; m fortunate to have the mayor' ; s cell phone number, and be able to talk to him when I want to. I don' ; t talk to him a lot. I will tomorrow because I have to go to lunch with some crap he' ; s got goin on. Oh, sorry, I didn' ; t mean that. Something he has going on. And I pull him aside every once in a while and go, " ; Hey, what' ; s up," ; you know? And he gives me the, you know, the regular, you know stuff and mumbo jumbo. And I know that he is, I know that he wants to do things, but the Mayor does not run this town, the old Mobile money runs this town. Yeah, old Mobile money runs this town. As a matter of fact, my uncle used to work for Augustine Meaher' ; s father who would have been Timothy Meaher' ; s grandson at the dog track he was a chef. My uncle was the best chef in town, he worked for Admiral Sam' ; s hotel, he worked for Raddison, and he was the chef at the dog track. And at that time, Gus Meaher had an interest in the Dog Track. Oh, well I' ; d hear my uncle come home and go " ; Gus Meaher, Gus Meaher, Gus Meaher." ; I didn' ; t know what the hell was goin' ; on. My uncle actually worked for Timothy Meaher' ; s grandson. Now I wonder if, that' ; s why I want to talk to Augustine, ' ; cause Augustine would' ; ve been like that like I was, and I want to know if his father really knew that my uncle was a descendant. ' ; Cause I don' ; t know if my uncle knew, I don' ; t. He was just, he would do private parties for Gus Meaher, Augustine Meaher, short. Gus is short for Augustine. Augustine the second, or the third, is the guy who has the, he was the attorney, now he' ; s my age, close to my age, he' ; s seventy-somethin' ; . So, I mean that' ; s just ironic when I thought about it, I' ; m like " ; wow, my uncle probably never even knew that, who Gus Meaher was." ; And he might have, but I never. If he did, there was never any dialogue in the house about any of this, you know? If there had been, I might have picked up on somethin' ; and ran with it and decided to do somethin, but there was never any dialogue. There was never any dialogue man about the Clotilda. Never even heard the word Clotilda. Never heard of it. So I don' ; t know, I think reinvention of the community would be great. It would be great to have a museum and housing and parks, theme parks and that kind of stuff to make that community whole again. Carpenter: If it' ; s alright, I' ; d love to ask some questions that are less about the descendents association and more about kind of your life and what- Patterson: Here we go! Carpenter: -brought you here Patterson: I don' ; t know those people anymore. They' ; re in jail, I dunno. Carpenter: (laughs) So if I - well actually before I jump into that, are there questions that any of you have about what we' ; ve talked about so far? Patterson: Yes, there are other people in the room Carpenter: that you wanted to-- add Santiago Roman: I had just a quick question, I was really fascinated by what you were saying in regards to the possibility of some kind of case being brought up against the Meahers if they found evidence and my first thought was how does that make you feel that there' ; s not enough- there' ; s like, not enough quote unquote not enough evidence already to be a case of a crime that happened like it seems, it feels like the evidence is all around us but they want this, like, one thing that is scientific, empirical, like DNA, and I know that you also said you don' ; t think a case or a lawsuit is exactly what is, like, needed or necessary but still, that' ; s just such a-- the need for more evidence like, what does that- how does that make you feel? Patterson: Well, you know, I believe in doing the right thing. Like I said, if the roles were reversed, and if I were a Meaher, which I did- I have heard there is discussion in the family among the grandchildren that, you know, we need to get out in front of this thing and get out there and say somethin' ; about it and there, I have heard-- only a rumor, that there is an edict within the family from those higher up: don' ; t say nothin' ; about this, if you do there will be no money in your future. I' ; ve heard that, I cannot attest to that, but I' ; ve heard that in more than one place. And I' ; ve said that I feel bad that this family is being skewered by what somebody did. I' ; m not looking- I don' ; t want it to come to that. I believe in doin' ; the right thing. Truth and reconciliation. I would love for us and the maaehers just to be able to talk. You can' ; t take back what happened. Can' ; t do it. So let' ; s figure out a way forward that' ; s best for everybody. You know, it' ; s no secret that this country is completely divided down racial lines. There' ; s no doubt about it. I was watchin' ; a thing before I came here about the stabbing in Portland few years ago with this guy who was on the subway and stabbed these people because he was- he didn' ; t like the two black ladies that was in the front of him sittin' ; on the subway. It' ; s crazy! The guy who runs over the people in Charlottesville- was that it, Charlottesville? Carpenter: mmhmm. (0:53:00) Patterson: Just take a car and run into a bunch of people. And then you have this imbecile, 45- I' ; m sorry- we have this man who has pulled off the ultimate con. He' ; s a con-man who has pulled off the ultimate con on America. To be elected president of the United States, who has no desire at all to unify. He only cares about the people around him, his brand, his family. He is the president of the United States. You are supposed to be the unifier in chief. I would love to be able to help with unity if the Meahers could just find their way to say, " ; Okay, we didn' ; t have a damn thing to do with that. But we gon' ; sit down and talk to these folks. Because their lives and ours are intertwined. We' ; re going to see how we can do some things to help this community reinvent itself. We gonna talk to the administration and let them know we' ; re on board with tryin' ; to help develop this community. Now errybody else get on board." ; That' ; s what I' ; m looking for. I' ; m looking for truth and reconciliation. The truth, it happened. The reconciliation is- no, the truth was the act, the reconciliation was, we' ; re sorry. I dunno if I sa- I dunno if I said anything, really. I just start ramblin' ; man, you know. Ugh, Jesus. You cut that out too. Okay. Carpenter: Um, so to turn to- oh, sorry Isabel Tadmiri: I have a question that' ; s still kind of about Clotilda. So you mentioned how you' ; re- the Clotilda Descendants association is working with the older descendents and older community members, and you did mention like, your kids and your grandkids as well but I was wondering if you had any more thoughts about how the association and how the descendants should be or are interacting with kids in the community, either in the schools or otherwise. Patterson: Education. Yeah, education is one of our things, we wanna educate people on the story. On our website, it has a line that says " ; Never forget" ; . That was a line that, I didn' ; t tell the guy to put on there but he put on there, he attributed to my name, I' ; m like, " ; Okay! Whateva." ; Never forget. You should not forget certain things. You know, you should not forget certain things. I remember things right now, at this age, that my mother told me. That my father told me. That helped to get to where I am. Now don' ; get me wrong, I went down some wrong tracks. But because of those things that I heard I was able to come back and go down the other fork in the road. I know some people who have not been able to- to come back. Mmkay? Um, education. And our mission statement I think Joycelyn, Joycelyn wrote our mission statement. And it talks about education. It talks about educating the young people, something that they didn' ; t do to us. Educating young people on who you are, man when I found out I was Yoruba, I looked up Yoruba and there was this dude standin' ; there and he was like cut and buff, I' ; m like man, I' ; m goin' ; to the gym! You know, cause I wan' ; be like him! He' ; s a Yoruban warrior. Runnin' ; around, doin' ; things strong, you know, leadin' ; his family. Um, so education yeah, is big for what the descendants are tryna make sure that we do. Did I answer? Tadmiri: Yeah! Havi Carillo-Klein: You talked a lot about, um, the role of direct descendants in- Patterson: The older' ; ns? Carillo-Klein: Um, yeah the ones in your organization about their role in kind of reparations, and especially after the disc- uh, when they found the boat, I was wondering how you saw the role of community members that aren' ; t necessarily direct descendants in, how they' ; re playing a role? Patterson: I' ; m glad you talked about that because there are people that still live there who have that community' ; s best interest at heart. So it' ; s really important that the alumni association- see, Joe Womack still lives there and has a direct link- C.H.E.S.S, Joe Womack is the watchdog to be sure no more International Paper Companies come there. No more Scott Paper Companies come there. You know if you go to any Black- any city in America, there' ; s always the bottom, or across the track, or, you know, some' ; n like that. If you watch the, in the heat of the night they always say let' ; s go to the bottom. Well that' ; s where the Black people live. That' ; s where industry was always put, you know. It' ; s important that we recognize the residents that live there and their wishes and, one interesting thing about that- we had a blueway celebration a few weeks ago, wish y' ; all coulda been there, it was kinda cool, um, and I want the- the Finleys, Karlos Finley who I mentioned, well his cousin Eric Finley has a tour that he does called the Dora Finley Trail it' ; s a trail of markers that denote the slave trade and stops for the underground railroad and that type thing that his family was directly involved in. I get calls all the time now because of my number, that number on the website actually rings to this phone, about people wanting tours of Africatown. There' ; s really nothing to see, really. There are sites that only we know what they are, and who lived there and what they did and what used to be over there but, um, we don' ; t have tour- it' ; s coming, but we don' ; t have markers or locations. Eric Finley has helped by incorporating some Africatown things in his Dora Finley tour. I overheard someone say, actually my sister, overheard one of the residents say, " ; The Finleys shouldn' ; t be here, here they are makin' ; money off of Africatown" ; . The Finleys are a fairly well-to-do family, they' ; re very light skinned and they have some whites in their heritage. But they' ; re good people, love Eric Finley, he' ; s a good friend of mine. And Eric has modified his tour to go to some points in Africatown ' ; cause we don' ; t have a tour bus, he does. So whenever I get anybody who calls to say " ; Hey we need a tour of Africatown" ; I call Eric. And say Eric, here' ; s the number some people comin' ; to town they want a tour, blah blah blah. And he modifies his tour, and he knows enough about Africatown because his grandfather taught the midwife, Mama Thelma Shamburger - have y' ; all heard about her?- they taught Mama Thelma, his grandfather Doctor Franklin, how to be a midwife. Mama Thelma delivered everybody in Plateau- Africatown. I have two legal first names, Darron and Darrell, because Mama Thelma used to hit the sauce hard man, I mean Mama Thelma be drunk. And she' ; s, there' ; s a lotta people out there who Mama Thelma just totally screwed up their name! She was a great midwife, but Mama Thelma was hittin' ; it hard and, so, the Finleys do have- you see what I mean, the Finleys do have some interest in that community. But when I heard, my sister told me that she overheard these people saying, well, the Finleys don' ; t have nothin' ; to do with this, I immediately called a meeting with the descendants and said hey now look, I' ; m thinkin' ; about gettin' ; Eric Finley to do this but I heard one of the descendants- one a' ; the residents not all that keen on the Finleys doin' ; this. Whaddo y' ; all think? And I got an overwhelming, resounding " ; We don' ; have a tour bus" ; . That lil one cuts the Finleys out because if one resident got their way, how many more did? And we don' ; t have- we, we' ; re just- and I say this kinda tongue-in-cheek- we' ; re just the descendants. We don' ; t live there. Who are we to say what should happen in that community. Make sense? So, I have to get the pulse of descendants and everybody, it was kinda like 75-25 go ahead and do it. But I thought no, let' ; s just let that go and let' ; s find a van ourself and we don' ; t have a lotta money. We just found out yesterday we may be getting access to half a million dollars from Doug Jones' ; s a bill that Doug Jones has appropriated in the senate that we will have access to apply for grants to, but we don' ; t have a lotta money. I paid for things outta my pocket, descendants we pay for things outta our pocket. It' ; s coming and we know that and as soon as we do that and I get my money back, I can put my black rims on my truck. Gonna have black rims on my tundra, you know that, you know that yes you do. So, it was easier for me to say okay, don' ; t do it. Don' ; t upset the balance. Just let it go. That good? Okay. Imani Badillo: What has it been like to share this history with your family and to be learning this history, and especially with the finding of the Clotilda, what has it been like to discuss this with your family? Patterson: Absolutely outstanding. I am absolutely just walkin' ; on air. I got friends that' ; s callin' ; me from Philly, " ; Man we read about this in the Inquirer" ; I' ; m like, " ; Yeah, man, got this goin' ; on!" ; yeah. I have friends in Detroit, " ; Man!" ; - my ex-wife called, she' ; s like " ; Man, you know, this is really cool you know" ; I said " ; Yeah it is" ; - we have a really good relationship, me and my ex-wife, I said " ; Yeah it is" ; and I' ; m like, alright. You know, we got this goin' ; on and we got people from Japan call and that' ; s exciting stuff, you know! And I' ; m, I just wanna be able to give them the right information now they' ; re all pulling for us. I call0 I' ; m a writer, a journalist- so I don' ; t have problems writing stories, I call delGado I' ; m like " ; delGado! Give me somethin' ; man! You know, since the ship has been found tell me somethin' ; now because now we need to keep people up on things" ; I have a blog on the website, I written a couple blogs there, how would you like it if you were a slave, what would you feel like? And I go into things about the 60 day journey and stuff like that and delGado gave me a good story, really not what I want cause you know scientists and engineers they speak scientific and engineering. As a technical writer, I speak engineering and science but I also speak English. And you have to take what an engineer says, I develop information from drawings. Engineers only know how to do drawings. So delGado was givin' ; me all a' ; this technical stuff, " ; Yeah we got the sonar we can read and go through this and map" ; I' ; m like " ; oh, shit." ; (silently apologizes for cursing) Oh shit, delGado" ; - damn, did it again! " ; I' ; m like, delGado tell me something I can tell some people that is interesting, ' ; kay?" ; And he couldn' ; t so I had to get it out of him. He said " ; Well we' ; re going to now make sure that we' ; re gonna try to lift the thing wholly" ; I' ; m like " ; Really, not in pieces?" ; " ; No" ; And it' ; s cool how they do it, they go down and put this thing down to pump all this water out and then me and you can be walkin' ; down in this hole in this water just walkin' ; around and diggin' ; out sand, diggin' ; this thing out, excavate it. It' ; s pretty cool. Um, so, it' ; s really way cool. I am proud to be who I am. I' ; m proud to be a descendant, I' ; m proud to be a leader, and I don' ; like to use the word leader, I' ; m more a facilitator of the group, because people " ; I' ; m in charge" ; I' ; m not in charge, I' ; m just a guy. I am, I' ; m just a guy. I' ; m a badass guy that can do stuff and I thank the Lord for that and I know I have far to go, I have an ego but it doesn' ; t overwhelm and overtake what I do so I can- talkin' ; about the descendants. I had to call these people and say, " ; hey, what do you think about this tour, gettin' ; the Finleys to do it, the residents might be upset" ; you know, somebody else mighta said screw the residents. You know? I was talkin' ; to Anderson Flen, and he was talkin' ; bout " ; We need an administrator to administer all the groups and kinda oversee all the groups- Descendants, C.H.E.S.S., MEJAC" ; - have you met Ramsey? Ramsey' ; s way cool. That is my man. See we got people who think Ramsey shouldn' ; t be involved, well Ramsey is a zoning guru. Okay? That boy knows how to zone- and you know, he keeps watch on stuff like that. We need Ramsey! You know, but we have people who don' ; t understand we need different folks in the wheel to keep this wheel stronger. We make it stronger, Ramsey makes it stronger, Joe Womack is a badass. Anderson is a badass in his own right. We got all these different spokes in the wheel and they all have to fit. Patterson: We all have different stuff that we bring to this wheel! And we all bring good stuff, man! We just can' ; t seem to, you know, make it fit. I am like superglue. That' ; s how I see myself. I see myself as a tube of superglue. I believe in bringin' ; everybody to the table and everybo- well, I did. I did think I could do it but now I' ; m realizin' ; that some a' ; these people, the superglue is just not takin' ; and not holding. It should be really easy for everyone to sit around the table and say, okay, whatchu got, whatchu gonna do, whatchu got. But we got some people sayin " ; I was the first here!" ; and we got some people say " ; Oh you shouldn' ; t do this!" ; and we got Anderson Flen over there like he' ; s the puppet master, the guy behind the curtain or Wizard of Oz and I' ; m like, okay. Alright, you ever seen, uh, Predator 2? In town with just a few days to kill in LA, it' ; s Danny Glover- you seen Predator 1 with Arnold? You never seen Predator? Predator baddest monster ever. Fix itself. Anyway, Predator 2 Danny Glover, I mean he' ; s, he can make himself invisible, um, he' ; s in town in LA just a few days to kill and he is killin' ; all these Jamaicans, the Predator' ; s a hunter and they' ; re hunters from the future, anyway, Danny Glover chase this things all the way through the movie. Killed Danny Glover' ; s friends, his work- coworkers, killed a bunch a' ; people, at the end Danny Glover finally kills this thing and after he kills ' ; im, he' ; s just- and then all a sudden, all these other predators just start appearing outta nowhere. And he thinks that they' ; re about to kill him and he goes, " ; Okay. Who' ; s next?" ; Now sometimes I feel like that with the things that I have to go through. Because this is too big! This is huge! This is huge, man! And they still actin' ; like we' ; re makin' ; kool-aid when we' ; re mixing the most exotic drink here that you can find. And get on board with it. There is no option, get on board with it. Did anyone ask me anything? Did you even ask me anything? Interviewers: Yes! Patterson: Nobody even ask me anything, oh god! Okay. No? Okay. Alright. Carpenter: Um, okay. I' ; m, so I' ; m curious, my impression is you spent all or most of your career as a journalist? I' ; m curious what drew you to that field and what you like about it. Patterson: ' ; Member I told you my daddy died? I was on my way to Wt& ; H, I used to do the stuff that you see, the picture changes there' ; s somebody sitting behind the class switchin' ; , I used to do that out in El Paso, my degree' ; s in mass communications. And I was a Dj, started I was a Dj then I went to tv and I stayed in El Paso for a couple years after I graduated then my sister called, she' ; s an assistant superintendent for schools in New Haven and she had a hook up with WT& ; H and said you need to come on up here, I came up here until my daddy died. Well my daddy died, I couldn' ; t just leave my momma, she' ; s a housewife. So I stayed, helped her fill out all these government papers and stuff like that. And I' ; ve just been blessed with the ability to communicate. I can write, I can do television, I can stand in front of ten million people and talk just like I' ; m talkin to y' ; all, I don' ; t care. My wife thinks that' ; s just amazing that I can do that because she' ; s extremely introverted, you know? So, I got a job as the weekly newspaper- well, I went to all the TV stations with my experience as a switcher--director--nobody would hire me, I was the wrong color. Old South, 1978, yeah. So, I got a job with the weekly newspaper called Inner City News, and I started writing sports. Now, listen, when I say these things, I' ; m not braggin by any means, I' ; m just telling you the truth. I have the ability when I write to make you feel like you were right there. I' ; ve been told that many times, and I' ; ve won awards for my writing. So I got a job writing sports with Inner City News, and the press register saw some of my stuff, and they hired me. My first piece was a little town called Bayou LaBatre, it' ; s about 30 miles from here, it' ; s a little seaside community. And I went down there, a bunch of rednecks down there, and you know, I just did what I could. As a matter of fact I was covering a city council one night, and the mayor was Gussie Wentzell. You' ; ve eaten at Wentzel' ; s Oyster House since you' ; ve been here? On Dauphin Street, when it was a famous seafood joint here. Anyway, well Gus E. Wentzel was gonna take the council out and have a meeting in his office, and I' ; m like " ; no, no. That' ; s against the Open Meetings Law, man. You can' ; t do that." ; So, he said, " ; Yeah, we' ; re gonna go in the back because we have a bunch of negras in here that we don' ; t want to hear what we' ; re sayin." ; Negras? What are those? Oh, you talkin about me? Negras. Negros. But he said negras, and I never even heard of negras. I wanted to see what one looked like. But there was none behind me, and I was the only Black person in there. So, I told him, " ; You cannot do this as it' ; s against the Open Meetings Law." ; So I came back and wrote a story the next day that the city council of Bayou LaBatre had violated the Open Meetings Law. It got to the solicitor general or whoever it was in Montgomery, and those people hit the ceiling because they had never been called out like that. This is the Old South, they do what they want to do. So from that I got some respect down there for that. So there was a shrimp boat that had got busted out in the Gulf of Mexico with a bunch of weed on it, and my boss told me, get the captain of record from the Coast Guard and write a story. So, this is my first front page story, man. Yeah, shrimp boat busted, blah blah blah blah. I' ; m sittin there like " ; yeah, front page story, I' ; m good." ; So the phone rang and he says, " ; Hey, Darron Patterson?" ; I' ; m like " ; yeah." ; I thought it was one of my fans, you know? He said, " ; Yeah, I' ; m the guy who you put in the story as the captain of record, and I' ; m gonna come down there and kill your Black ass." ; I' ; m like, " ; Alrighty, thank you, goodbye." ; (Interviewers laughing) And I hung up and I went to my editor and said, I really need to go to sports. (all laughing) He said, " ; Oh, Darron, you' ; re doin a great job and I value you," ; and I said, " ; Did you hear what I said? I want to go to sports." ; So I went to sports, and the rest was history for twenty years. I wrote sports, I covered the Pistons when they hit back-to-backs in Detroit, covered Barry Sanders, covered the Tigers. I covered hockey man. I covered the Red Wings. I had never seen a hockey game before, but. You want me to wait? Carpenter: The audio' ; s still going. Patterson: Okay. I had never covered a hockey game before but what a lot of people don' ; t understand is that the story tells itself, you just have to interpret it the next day. And a lot of people, you know, put themselves in the story, a lot of writers. But you really don' ; t have to do that. So, I did that and then when I got to Detroit, and I started coverin Nascar, I was fascinated because each time by, the car could talk to the pits. It has a mother computer in the pits. If you see the people sittin up on the high stand, they' ; re monitorin everything about that car: rear end, tires, this and that. And the car is sayin " ; I' ; m doin this I' ; m doin that, oh you need to bring me in for a service, maintenance, pit stop." ; So I thought that was fascinating, so I kinda did technical writing. Have you seen the trucks, Penske? Yellow trucks, Penske? That' ; s Roger Penske, he' ; s a real guy. He lives in Detroit ad he' ; s a billionaire, he owns Penske racing, and he has teams on the Nascar circuit and the Indy circuit. So I told Roger, you know I said, " ; You know man, I really like this, I' ; m gonna get into technical writing." ; So he put me with his chief engineer, a guy named John Dick. And John taught me technical writing. I thought it would be easy because I' ; m a writer. How hard can it be? And technical writing is nothin but research. So I got into technical writing and then I went to work for Roush Racing, they have a Nascar team. And then I went to work for Sun Technicom, who were contractors for Ford Motor Company. Those little books in your car in the glove compartment? I used to write those little books, and I also wrote the procedures for how long it should take a technician to fix your car when you take it to the dealership. It' ; s called Labor Time Standards. I' ; ll have a guy come in, and Ford would give me a prototype and I' ; d have him break it down, and I' ; d write down what he did and time it, and if it took him .5, .75 hours to take a radiator out, that' ; s how much you get billed when you pay, and that' ; s how those things get to the dealership to tell you how much you pay for a procedure on your car. That was fun. And from there, I morphed into project management. And then from there, morphed into project management with a steel company. And from there, went into project management and technical writing with airbus because it doesn' ; t matter to me if it rolls or flies, same thing. Same procedure. Still got to write the procedure so when the guy fixes it, it' ; s fixed right. And you better make sure this airplane thing is right because, you know, you don' ; t have no place to pull over and park. So, I still write sports ; as a matter of fact, one of my high school games that I was supposed to cover Friday night, they just switched it to tomorrow night because weather is coming. Bad weather. So, that' ; s pretty much it, and I' ; m not sure. Pretty much. I' ; m not gonna elaborate, but that' ; s pretty much it in a nutshell on how I got to sittin on this couch. Yeah. Carpenter: And why' ; d you come back to Mobile? Patterson: I came back working for the United States Sports Academy. I was a Director of Communications ' ; cause I was tired of snow, man. I had had enough, I' ; m a southern boy at heart. I had enough of the snow in Detroit. And this job popped up in Daphne as the United States Sports Academy Director of Communications, and I applied for it, and they hired me and flew me down here, and on the way back to the airport I got the call in the car that I had the job. So I went back and my wife and I were already thinkin' ; about divorce because we just were goin' ; in different directions. So I moved down here and went to work for the sports academy. That job lasted three months because he was a difficult asshole, and I left and started doing something else and went into aerospace and stuff like that ' ; cause I wasn' ; t going back up to the Midwest. I had enough of snow. Carpenter: I guess my last kind of career-related question is you said you were the first African-American writer to cover Nascar? Patterson: To cover Nascar. In the country, for a major metropolitan newspaper. There were other guys doin' ; freelance work, but I was the first one to cover it for a major metropolitan newspaper. I knew Dale Earnhardt Jr. when he was like that. His father and I were good friends. Dale Earnhardt Sr. We were good friends, he was a good guy. When he died, I really cried. He' ; s a good man. It was fun coverin' ; Nascar because I was a novelty: a Black man on the Nascar circuit. Everybody wanted to be my friend, it was kind of cool. Yeah. Then I got in Indy car, and those guys, they' ; re the wine glass. They' ; re the rich, that' ; s the rich set, formula one? Oh, man. F1 is where it' ; s at. If you get to go to the F1 race, that' ; s like goin' ; to the red carpet in Hollywood because those guys are rich. Their fans are rich, and you know, you just get to see those assholes up front. Yeah. Carpenter: Anybody have any questions? Patterson: No. Okay. Carpenter: Well, Mr. Patterson, thank you so much for Patterson: Call me Darron. Carpenter: Darron. Thank you for your time. Patterson: Yeah. I' ; m good. video 0 https://oberlincollegelibrary.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=Interview_DarronPatterson_Fall_2019.xml Interview_DarronPatterson_Fall_2019.xml
Sort Priority
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0005
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mr. Darron Patterson
Subject
The topic of the resource
Yoruba (African people)
Clotilda (Ship)
Format
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video
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https://africatown.oberlincollegelibrary.org/files/original/ff55114332fb251d3f812348df6d50d9.png
09af35f6c7fcc30b68dbbb33609fdf55
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janet Fiskio
Reggie Hill
Major Joe Womack
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mrs. Mae Jones
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https://oberlincollegelibrary.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=Interview_JonesMae_January_2018.xml
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5.3 Mrs. Mae Jones Interview 00:38:33 Africatown Oberlin College Library Mrs. Mae Jones Janet Fiskio Reggie Hill Major Joe Womack 1:|22(2)|40(6)|48(3)|57(14)|73(4)|80(9)|93(12)|99(8)|107(31)|112(8)|121(8)|133(2)|145(12)|157(10)|168(10)|187(7)|206(5)|219(6)|233(4)|246(12)|260(14)|272(11)|287(9)|299(13)|310(3)|318(1)|325(8)|334(11)|345(13)|354(1)|373(10)|382(12)|395(12)|406(13)|418(14)|424(14)|436(8)|445(13) 0 https://youtu.be/RlXTiRuC1sA YouTube video 0 Introduction and Early Life of Mrs. Mae Jones Um, could you tell us--I'm remembering that you said you were born in Detroit. Can you tell us where you were born and also what your maiden name was? Mrs. Mae Jones talks about what it was like growing up in Detroit when it was a truly booming city. Ackerman ; Africatown ; Detroit ; Mississippi ; Willard Jones 128 Africatown in 1975 So, just like when I came to Africatown in 1975 this was a very thriving community. It had grocery stores, it had beauty shops, it had barber shops. We just--it was just--it was amazing to come into this community and see the type of community that it was. Mrs. Mae Jones talks about what it was like to live in Africatown in 1975 and of the environmental problems that led to its decline. She also talks about the businesses present that made the community self sufficient. Africatown ; businesses ; Environment ; Industry ; thriving 251 Important Africatown Figures, Neighborhood Watch, Africatown Businesses So, um, what are some of the things you remember about Africatown back in the seventies and who are some of the people you met. Mrs. Mae Jones talks about important figures in the Africatown community and the neighborhood watch that used to exist to protect people and maintain the safety of the community. It was maintained by a large group of active community members. She also continues detailing the businesses that used to exist in Africatown Businesses ; Church ; Community ; Justice ; Minister ; neighborhood watch ; Neighborhood Watch ; Pastor ; Religion ; Reverend ; Robert Hope 472 Best Memories of Africatown and Africatown Schools Some of the best memories... seein' the children out there playin'. At that time children didn't stay in the house. They were out jumpin' rope and playin' ball. Just in the community. But now you don't see children in the streets anymore. You don't' see 'em out there. Mrs. Mae recalls the children that would always play outside and the amazing teachers that taught at the schools. children ; MCTS ; school ; School ; schools ; Schools ; youth 574 Exodus from Africatown and Changes in the Community The environment...So many people were dying from different diseases.Lung cancer, asthma, breathing problems. All kinds of diseases, people, families--I think in my husband's family there were about four people that have died from cancer. Mrs. Mae Jones reflects on why she thinks people began to leave Africatown and also talks about the changes that occurred in the community during its population decline. cancer ; Cancer ; death ; disease ; Environment ; environment ; health ; neighborhood watch 818 Mobile County Training School Training School, I think they had--the year before I came here--two years before I came here, they made that a middle school. It was a high school and it was the first Black high school in the state of Alabama, so I've been told. Mrs. Jones talks about important graduates of MCTS Black High School ; Cleon Jones ; County ; Mobile ; Mobile County Training School ; School ; Training 1070 Africatown Culture Yes, they did. Yes, people had gardens inside the house, in back of the house. At Christmas time it was beautiful out here at Christmas time. All the houses were decorated. Mardi Gras time every house was decorated. They would have a parade comin' through the community. Durin' Mardi Gras time. And that was really something to see. Mrs. Mae Jones talks about the cultural events that used to occur in Africatown. Christmas ; Culture ; Mardi Gras 1231 Africatown in Canada and meeting Professor Fiskio Alberta, Canada. To the healin' walk. That was somethin' to see how that area had been destroyed. We travelled for miles and it was nothin' but empty space you would see those trucks and machinery out there clearin' the land where homes used to be. And the people there, it was no more residential area in Alberta. Mrs. Jones talks about the Alberta Tar Sands Peace Walk and meeting Janet Fiskio which marked the beginning of the Oberlin and Africatown collaboration. Alberta ; Canada ; Environment ; Tar Sands 1345 Pipeline in Africatown and Hazardous Industry that also reminds me of three years ago, four years ago, they ran a pipeline across Mobile County Training School playground. The children---that spring the children could not go outside and play. They couldn't have outside activities because they were layin' the pipeline across it. And that pipeline is still under the ground at Mobile County Training School. Mrs. Mae Jones talks about the pipeline that was built in Africatown without community consent. county ; Environment ; industry ; MCTS ; mobile ; Mobile County Training School ; Oil ; petrochemicals ; Pipeline ; pollution ; school ; storage tanks ; tanks ; training 1611 Significance and History of Africatown Why not preserve history? History is very important but this Black history doesn't seem to be important to them at all. So, that's what MEJAC, C.H.E.S.S., and the churches of Africatown is up against. Is tryin' to preserve what's left of the community. And maybe (indecipherable) rebuild the community. So, this is what we are up against. Mrs. Mae Jones talks about the importance of Africatown and why it and its history needs to be preserved. Africa ; Ancestry ; Black History ; CHESS ; History ; MEJAC ; preserve 1851 Conclusion and Hopes for the Future I would like to see Africatown return to what it was when I came here. I would love to see that. And I think we're on the right trail, road, to gettin' it back there because, we're workin' together and the support that we have, like from you guys. I think that we're--I think we have a good chance of bringin' some of it back. I really do. So that's what our main goal is to revive Africatown. The interview concludes with Mrs. Mae Jones talking about her hopes and visions for a successful future for Africatown. businesses ; churches ; future ; history ; religion ; thriving ; vision Mrs. Mae Jones: *clears throat* Let me get my throat. Janet Fiskio: So, this is Janet Fiskio with the Africatown Digital Archive project we' ; re talking with Ms. Mae Jones and its January fourth, 2018. We' ; re at Yorktown Church in Africatown. Um, so thank you so much. And I feel like I owe you a special thank you because you' ; re the reason I' ; m here. Mrs. Jones: Yes, I remember we met in Canada. Fiskio: Um, could you tell us--I' ; m remembering that you said you were born in Detroit. Can you tell us where you were born and also what your maiden name was? Mrs. Jones: Okay, I wasn' ; t born in Detroit I was raised in Detroit. I was born in a place called Ackerman, Mississippi. I was raised in Detroit and, uh, went to school there and met an Africatown man, married him, and that' ; s how I ended up in Africatown. I' ; ve been here since 1975. Fiskio: Okay, and what was the name of the Africatown man that you married? Mrs. Jones: His name was Willard Jones. And my maiden name is Maxwell. Yes Fiskio: Okay, and how did your family get from Mississippi up to Detroit? Mrs. Jones: They migrated there. My grandmother, then my mother moved there. And that' ; s where she raised us, in Detroit. Fiskio: About what--about when was that. Mrs. Jones: That was back in 60s 50s. Fiskio: There were a lot of people back then, right? Mrs. Jones: Right, ' ; cuz I graduated from high school in 1956. So that was--my mother went there back in the 40s. So, I graduated from Northwestern High in 1956. Fiskio: And what Detroit like back then? Mrs. Jones: It was boomin' ; . *laughs* That was the auto industry and Detroit was...boomin' ; . Detroit at that time was like Africatown was when I came here. There was millions of people there. Jobs were everywhere. Anybody who wanted a job could get a job. It was just a thriving city. So, just like when I came to Africatown in 1975 this was a very thriving community. It had grocery stores, it had beauty shops, it had barber shops. We just--it was just--it was amazing to come into this community and see the type of community that it was. But, then the industry that was here. That made it a hazardous place to live because it was--it was just terrible. Sometimes you would go out your door and you couldn' ; t see five feet in front of you because of stuff [debris] that was fallin' ; from the sky. You would wash your clothes, put them on the line, and you would have to take ' ; em in and wash ' ; em again from the debris that [because of the debris] --the soot and debris that was covering your clothes. You had to wash them more than once. It was a thriving community, there were people everywhere. Neighbors was very close. Workin' ; conditions--people was workin' ; and just about a store on every corner or some kind of business, just about on every corner. You didn' ; t have to go out the community to get anything that you needed. There was a laundry mat, a cleaners, the barber shop, and the beauty shop. Everything that you needed was right here in this community. But now, there' ; s nothin' ; here. You can' ; t buy anything in Africatown. Because the businesses closed down, people started moving away. It' ; s just nothing like it used to be. Fiskio: So, you said you moved here in the seventies? Mrs. Jones: Seventy--I came here in 1975. Fiskio: So, um, what are some of the things you remember about Africatown back in the seventies and who are some of the people you met. Mrs. Jones: Well one person who I know who was very active in the community. was my husband' ; s uncle Archie D. Bradley. There was [indecipherable] Hubbard. There was--the pastor here was. What was his name Joe? Reverand. I can' ; t think of his name. Anyways there was a very active minister here. Major Joe Womack: Reverend Mathews. Mrs. Jones: Reverend Mathews was the pastor at the time. But there was a very active minister in the community that was active in the community as well as justice for the community and that was Reverend Robert Hope. He was very active in community affairs. Other people, like I said, my husband' ; s uncle Archie D. Bradley, they had a neighborhood watch, and you didn' ; t have to worry about anybody breakin' ; in. They met every month and people would be out in the evening and they would be walkin' ; around through the neighborhood making sure the homes were safe. If you needed anything, they were there. Because it was a large group that was participating. You could look out your window and see somebody walkin' ; past and you would know that that was someone from that group. It was just very safe and, like I said, anything that you need or that people wanted all you had to do was--you could walk to the store, walk to the cleaners. Anything that you want you could walk here in the community and get what you needed. They had stores here on Bay Bridge Road, a barbershop, they had a gas station, had a couple gas stations out here. Whatever you needed the community had at that time. Then it just started goin' ; away. Fiskio: So those businesses, they were owned by people who lived here? Mrs. Jones: They were owned by Black community people. They were owned by community people. There was a barbershop that was sittin' ; right over there, right in front of the church. There was another barbershop there on [Center] street. There was a grocery store right there. There was a laundry mat right across over there. Anything that you needed was right here in the community. And the Post Fffice. We had a Post Office right there on Bay Bridge Road. But now there' ; s nothin' ; ! There' ; s nothin' ; here now. You can' ; t buy anything in Africatown. You have to go to Pritchard, Chickasaw, Saraland to get anything that you needed. You had to go out of the community to get it. Fiskio: It sounds like when you got here then--it sounds like it was a wonderful place to live. What are some of your best memories from that time? Mrs. Jones: Some of the best memories... seein' ; the children out there playin' ; . At that time children didn' ; t stay in the house. They were out jumpin' ; rope and playin' ; ball. Just in the community. But now you don' ; t see children in the streets anymore. You don' ; t' ; see ' ; em out there. They' ; re in the house on the computer or something. But at that time, they were out in the streets playin' ; . Playin' ; hopscotch *laughs* jump rope! You know all these--that' ; s what the children were doin' ; at the time. You don' ; t see that anymore and it' ; s really--Mobile County Training School was thrivin' ; and Whitley school was right there on Edward street. Mobile County was right up there. The two schools were here and they were full. Both schools. And a lot of the teachers were from right here in Africatown. Yes they were the teachers lived right here. I know Mrs. Russel, [Indecipherable] B Hubbard they lived right here in Africatown. So the children saw the teachers everyday. The churches was boomin' ; . Yorktown would be overflowin' ; with people. Hopewell, Union Baptist. This was really a thriving community at the time. Now *laughs* it' ; s just... Reggie Hill: What do you think it was that drove the people out? Mrs. Jones: The environment...So many people were dying from different diseases. Lung cancer, asthma, breathing problems. All kinds of diseases, people, families--I think in my husband' ; s family there were about four people that have died from cancer. I lost my husband last year from lung cancer. His sister--he had a sister died from cancer. A couple of uncles that died from cancer. It' ; s just--the environment made people leave because they were losing so many family members and they was having so many health problems themselves, you know? Businesses start closin' ; down because a lot of times the owners were passin' ; , were dyin' ; and there was no one else there to pick it up. So, the community just went down, down, down. And now even the buildings where the stores were there are torn down. There' ; s nothin' ; there now to let you know what used to be here. We had two gas stations right there on Bay bridge road. The post office was there. It was just--like I said anything that you needed was right here in this community at that time. It was a thrivin' ; community. Reggie Hill: You mentioned the neighborhood watch that was earlier. ' ; Cuz I remember when I was little me and my grandma would leave and she wouldn' ; t even lock the do' ; . I was tryin' ; to figure out what was the mentality then and why is it so different today? Mrs. Jones: Well, those people died out and there was no one to pick up where they dropped off because when they died their families--most of their families moved away. And so, there was no one to pick up where they left off. Like you said, you didn' ; t have to [lock doors] -- people didn' ; t lock their doors. *laughs* Reggie Hill: I remember that vividly, I would be shocked Mrs. Jones: Yeah, they didn' ; t lock their doors and windows was open, you know? At that time the air conditionings weren' ; t that popular, so your windows were up, your doors was open, you know? You could walk past anybody' ; s house and just look in the house because there was no doors locked or anything like that. And everyone--everybody knew everybody. " ; Hello, how you doin' ; , come in!" ; You know, people sat around, come out and talk to each other. It was just--it was nothin' ; like it is now. Now you better lock your doors *laughs* " ; Jesus" ; Yeah, so it' ; s just you know, a lot of time families, the mother and father might die. The children just leave the house there. They wouldn' ; t stay in the house. And the house would just decay because they didn' ; t want to stay in Africatown. They wanted to get away from the health hazards. So, they just moved away and let their families' ; houses go down. That' ; s why you have so many empty lots because the house just decayed and that was it. The school, they closed Whitley. Moved Whitley to Pritchard. Fiskio: That was the high school? Mrs. Jones: That was the middle school. Mobile County Training School, I think they had--the year before I came here--two years before I came here, they made that a middle school. It was a high school and it was the first Black high school in the state of Alabama, so I' ; ve been told. So that' ; s history right there. That' ; s something to be proud of about your community is to have the first Black high school. And there are a lot of people who have come out of Mobile County Training School that are in high positions today. Because a lot of very smart people came out of MCTS- VIDEO CUTS OFF Fiskio: Sorry for the interruption. Can we come back to where we were? *Jones laughs* You were talking about some of the people who graduated from the school and how there have been a lot of really incredible achievements that people have made in Africatown. I' ; m wondering what are some things that you would--what are some of the stories that you think are really important? Mrs. Jones: I need some help on that... Fiskio: Okay. *laughs* Mrs. Jones: So, Joe, Reggie, some of the people that finished from County [are important stories] Fiskio: How about some of the people you knew, that lived here. Mrs. Jones: I didn' ; t really know them. I know of them. But they *points to Reggie and Joe* would know them better than me. Fiskio: So, we got to interview Joe yesterday so I' ; m interested in hearing maybe some of the stories that you think are important. The one' ; s you know, or the people you' ; ve met. Mrs. Jones: Well I think about Henry Williams. He was a very knowledgeable person of the history of Africatown. He ran a barber shop down there in Magazine Point and he had a lot of history of Africatown. Someone else.... y' ; all help me.... someone else that did something *laughs* Reggie Hill: I guess I' ; m tryin' ; to see where you' ; re going. Mrs. Jones: Well what is Anderson' ; s profession? Anderson Flen. Major Joe Womack: What was his career in? Mrs. Jones: Yes. Reggie Hill: He was in health care at the state of Georgia. Mrs. Jones: Health care? he taught health care? Major Womack: Nah, he worked for the state health [Department & ; Center for Disease Control] Mrs. Jones: Health care provider? Anderson Flen, he' ; s also the president of Mobile County Alumni. Cleon Jones, he played with the New York Mets in 1969 champions--world series champ. What was the other guy' ; s name who lived ' ; round here on...huh? Reggie Hill: Talkin' ; about Agee? Mrs. Jones: Tommy Agee. These--they were from Africatown and they made good and came back home to here. So uh, but there are more but I can' ; t--I can' ; t think of them right now. Fiskio: That' ; s okay. When you moved here, I' ; m thinking, you were talking about how the place was booming and what a great community it was. When you remember walking around, did people have gardens and how did they decorate their houses? Mrs. Jones: Yes, they did. Yes, people had gardens inside the house, in back of the house. At Christmas time it was beautiful out here at Christmas time. All the houses were decorated. Mardi Gras time every house was decorated. They would have a parade comin' ; through the community. Durin' ; Mardi Gras time. And that was really something to see. [I think it was the Alumni parading] Fiskio: Can you tell me more about that ' ; cuz I' ; m not from a place where there' ; s Mardi Gras. So, what was that like? Mrs. Jones: Well they would be dressed in costumes, Mardi Gras costumes. And the band would be playin' ; and then they would have the majorettes, they would be leadin' ; the group that--It was really somethin' ; to see. They would go all throughout the community paradin' ; so that everybody could just sit on your porch and watch them come through your community. It was really somethin' ; to see. That was really beautiful. They did that at Mardi Gras time then sometime at Christmas time they would have events that was goin' ; on. Black history month they always had a lot of activities goin' ; on at the community center and they would give you a lot of information on Africatown. What it was all about, who was doin' ; what and everything. It was just amazin' ; to see events--events that used to occur out here. Yes, it was really somethin' ; to see. Fiskio: It sounds like there was a lot of pride in Africatown. Mrs. Jones: It was. It was a lot of pride in Africatown. People was just proud---and then the ones that moved away they would come back and participate and you know, it was just--it was really something to see. It was amazing. how people participate and get involved in what was going on. It was really---but now you don' ; t have anything. *laughs* You don' ; t have any of that now. You don' ; t---at Mardi Gras time---the different churches doin' ; Black History Month, different churches have programs on Black History. But as far as the community getting involved doing things you don' ; t see that anymore. Fiskio: Although you' ; re still involved. You do a lot. Mrs. Jones: Yes, I' ; m involved... in some activities. *laughs* So it keeps me goin' ; . Fiskio: So, since I was there, I was wondering if you could tell the story of going up to the healing walk. ' ; Cuz that' ; s part---you came there as part of MEJAC right? Mrs. Jones: Yes, I was. We um, that was in what, three years ago? Fiskio: 2014? Mrs. Jones: fourteen. 2014. MEJAC, Ramsay, got a grant and they sent us to? Fiskio: Alberta Mrs. Jones: Alberta, Canada. To the healin' ; walk. That was somethin' ; to see how that area had been destroyed. We travelled for miles and it was nothin' ; but empty space you would see those trucks and machinery out there clearin' ; the land where homes used to be. And the people there, it was no more residential area in Alberta. All we saw there was hotels, people livin' ; in hotels. They didn' ; t have any kind of community activity. It was just--it was really terrible to see how that community had been destroyed by the pipeline. All you saw was open field and that also reminds me of three years ago, four years ago, they ran a pipeline across Mobile County Training School playground. The children---that spring the children could not go outside and play. They couldn' ; t have outside activities because they were layin' ; the pipeline across it. And that pipeline is still under the ground at Mobile County Training School. Fiskio: When did the--when did the community find out about that pipeline? Mrs. Jones: When they was layin' ; it. *laughs* Fiskio: So they didn' ; t talk to you about it before? Mrs. Jones: The community didn' ; t know anything about it. When we knew anything, they were diggin' ; goin' ; across the playground layin' ; pipeline. So, that was--that was terrible. The kids--it' ; s springtime, you know you look forward to spring, the kids gettin' ; outside, playin' ; basketball--I mean football, baseball. They couldn' ; t do it because they were layin' ; the pipeline. So that was--and that' ; s was had destroyed Alberta were those pipelines. People didn' ; t have--you didn' ; t see any homes. None whatsoever. You didn' ; t see any homes. All you saw was wide open space and machinery. That' ; s all you saw. Fiskio: So was it the pipeline that made you decide to go up to Canada? Mrs. Jones: Well, Ramsay [MEJAC]--yes, that was decided on, us going to Canada to see what the pipelines had done there and what could happen here. *Phone Rings and video ends* Fiskio: Sorry, so yeah let' ; s go back to the pipeline. So, they came in, they built a pipeline, you went up to see what had happened in Canada. What made you decide to go? ' ; Cuz they must have decided who was gonna go from MEJAC. Mrs. Jones: Well, I was asked to go. I was one of the people that was asked to go, and I just wanted to see what it was like and then we came back and we decided--we would go down and meet with the city council. And we also met with the county commissioner because at that time they are anticipating putting tanks across the street on Paper Mill Road international laws and we went down and let them know how we felt about that. And so far, it' ; s on hold but we don' ; t know how long that' ; s gonna last but we went down---we had ministers from---the pastors from the community. They went down and they spoke, they supported us. So, we were able to stop it (indecipherable) and properly finished. Stopped the permit. They wanted to put fifty tanks across from the school and this community. And you know in the event of a tornado or lighting hit one of those tanks, this community would be destroyed because there would be no time to evacuate. So, we really let them know what a danger it was to the community. So, so far, they have not done anything else about that. But, they are also dredging the river down here too. Like Reverend said, the dredgin' ; that they dredge up, they' ; re gonna put it right out past Africatown Bridge. And we would be inhaling all of that debris comin' ; from the bottom of the Mobile River. So, it' ; s always a constant battle tryin' ; to keep hazardous industry from comin' ; into this community when the city should be proud of the community. It seems as if the city' ; s goal is to destroy the community. Why not preserve history? History is very important but this Black history doesn' ; t seem to be important to them at all. So, that' ; s what MEJAC, C.H.E.S.S., and the churches of Africatown is up against. Is tryin' ; to preserve what' ; s left of the community. And maybe (indecipherable) rebuild the community. So, this is what we are up against. Fiskio: I remember when we were at the Alberta Walk that you got up and told the story of Africatown just to show really briefly, you know, short, and it was so---I had never heard that story. It' ; s hard for me to understand why this is a unique place in the whole world, right? This is the only place where people can trace their ancestry back to Africa who were brought here against their will. And it' ; s hard for me to understand why there hasn' ; t been more effort---I mean the community has (indecipherable) history that' ; s hard for me to understand why there hasn' ; t been more. Mrs. Jones: My idea is that it' ; s a Black community and the city and the state they aren' ; t concerned about preserving this community. Like I said before if the federal government recognizes it as being historical why doesn' ; t our city and state recognize it? And why aren' ; t they involved in trying to preserve--help us to preserve the community. This could be a tourist attraction, this could be a world tourist attraction. The last place that the slaves were brought to. I mean, can you imagine the business that could come to Africatown just to see a place like this? But we are constantly fighting to try to preserve this place. When our city and state is just---any business that come in that is hazardous to your health they just wanna send it to Africatown. That' ; s terrible. That' ; s horrible. So, we are forever--I mean, like I said before us there were people in the community that fought to keep it as long as it had and now it' ; s just passin' ; down to, like, Joe and I and Reggie. Reggie' ; s another generation that' ; s fightin' ; to keep this community alive. So, it' ; s just--it' ; s a battle, it' ; s an uphill battle. But we' ; re not gonna give up. *laughs* We' ; re not gonna give up. We' ; re going to continue to fight. Fiskio: And you' ; re still here Mrs. Jones: Yes, and so is Joe and Reggie and the rest of the people that' ; s workin' ; with us. So, it' ; s just, we' ; re gonna keep fighting. Reggie Hill: What made you stay? Mrs. Jones: Stay where? Reggie Hill: Here, in Africatown. Mrs. Jones: *laughs* My husband! *all laugh* My husband. Yes, yes, and his family is still here. I guess I' ; m here to stay. Fiskio: Are there things we haven' ; t talked about today? I know we got interrupted a couple times. Are there things you would like to have a chance---any stories you' ; d like to have a chance to tell that we haven' ; t asked you about. Mrs. Jones: No, I think we pretty much covered everything. Just like (indecipherable) I would like to see Africatown return to what it was when I came here. I would love to see that. And I think we' ; re on the right trail, road, to gettin' ; it back there because, we' ; re workin' ; together and the support that we have, like from you guys. I think that we' ; re--I think we have a good chance of bringin' ; some of it back. I really do. So that' ; s what our main goal is to revive Africatown. And I think we have a good chance of doin' ; that. Reggie Hill: So, what would be the ideal picture of that Africatown in your own vision? Mrs. Jones: To see it thrivin' ; again. To see businesses where you don' ; t have to go fifteen or twenty miles away to get the things that you need. Because, when I came here, whatever you needed you could get it right here in Africatown, and I would like to see that happen again. See this as a thrivin' ; community. Reggie Hill: Do you think that there is anything else that would need to be added to community for it to be the global tourist attraction that you mentioned? Mrs. Jones: Well if we can get the businesses back in Africatown and with the people that we know, like, gettin' ; the word out that Africatown is thrivin' ; again. I think that it would be very beneficial to the community, financially and otherwise. Because, people would want to see what has happened. Because, you know, like the Reverend said, a lot of people don' ; t know anything about Africatown. They don' ; t know the history. And to get it know, to get it out there in the media about this place. I think a lot of people would like to come and see where this actually happened. So that' ; s what I think. Mrs. Jones: It' ; s wonderful to let the world know that this community is history. This is history right here in Africatown. Fiskio: You mentioned you would like to see the businesses come back and then you also talked about some of the things that used to happen in the community like Mardi Gras or Christmas. What are some other things like that that you' ; d like to see come back? I know we talked a lot about the school and how important the school is. Mrs. Jones: Well I would like to see the school return to being a productive high school because the history of that school, the first Black high school. Wouldn' ; t it be wonderful for that to return? For it to be a high school again? That would really be---that be a drawing to the community right there. A lot of people don' ; t even know about the history of Mobile County Training School. A lot of people don' ; t even know that. And to get it returned as a high school, that would really be something to see. Yes, that would really be something to see. But we have to get more people interested in revivin' ; Africatown in order to get these things. And I appreciate Oberlin, that you' ; re involved in it and letting people know about Africatown. If you get more people like you, Africatown would be known nationwide. So, that' ; s something for us to strive for. And I think we' ; re on the right road. You' ; re helpin' ; (indecipherable) everybody is helping. I think we' ; re on the right road to get recognition. The recognition that we deserve. Reggie Hill: I think I' ; m gonna ask this, it' ; s probably something that' ; s been on my heart, personally. What was it then about the churches that drew everybody in, compared to where today---and it' ; s not just unique in Africatown, a lot of churches are suffering with membership. What do you think it was at the time when you first arrived in Africatown that drew the people to fellowship together versus in today' ; s time? Mrs. Jones: Well, one thing that the community was larger and so the people came to the churches to worship. They came to thank the Lord for bringin' ; them from where they were to where they are. But then the industry in the area drove the people away. And that' ; s why the churches are nothin' ; like as large as they used to be because the community is not here like it was. So, if we could get the community to thrivin' ; again then that' ; s gonna rebuild the churches also because there will be people in the community to attend the churches. Now, most of the people that attend the churches do not live in Africatown. They' ; ve come back on Sundays and some of them don' ; t come back at all. That' ; s why the membership is so low. But if we can get---If we can thrive again then that' ; ll also fill the churches up again. We really need the churches now. We really need the churches for what we are goin' ; thru now. You know and it' ; s---if we can fill the community back up we can fill the churches back up. And thank the Lord for Pastor Williams because ever since he has been involved in this community. Tryin' ; to rebuild this community. So, if we rebuild the community we' ; ll rebuild the churches also. People will come back to the community and come back to church. Reggie Hill: You answered my question *laughs* Fiskio: Thank you! Sorry about the technological glitches. Oral History video 0 https://oberlincollegelibrary.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=Interview_JonesMae_January_2018.xml Interview_JonesMae_January_2018.xml
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Mrs. Mae Jones
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Janet Fiskio
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Mr. Nashid Rushdan
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5.3 Mr. Nashid Rushdan Full Interview 01:42:54 Africatown Oberlin College Library Mr. Nashid Rushdan Janet Fiskio 1:|24(9)|33(2)|42(14)|54(3)|65(4)|73(11)|84(2)|93(6)|100(4)|112(3)|118(8)|125(10)|133(6)|143(8)|158(3)|165(1)|174(1)|183(10)|191(12)|203(2)|212(9)|219(13)|226(6)|234(4)|242(1)|252(2)|263(1)|272(9)|283(1)|290(2)|299(11)|306(7)|315(6)|325(2)|333(12)|343(2)|349(8)|356(11)|364(12)|376(9)|385(10)|396(5)|406(9)|424(11)|432(5)|440(1)|446(6)|457(12)|465(7)|478(2)|490(12)|497(3)|504(3)|512(7)|519(13)|527(5)|537(3)|542(7)|549(8)|557(6)|565(14)|575(2)|581(16)|591(6)|600(10)|615(3)|621(14)|629(14)|637(6)|646(12)|654(9)|664(10)|676(13)|689(16)|703(10)|717(16)|727(12)|736(14)|750(3)|761(3)|772(13)|781(18)|790(3)|800(7)|810(8)|823(11)|840(2)|851(1)|857(10)|874(9)|882(11)|892(13)|903(14)|911(4)|923(7)|932(1)|939(6)|947(16)|957(2)|967(6)|975(5)|989(6) 0 https://youtu.be/OhqUFPNJEY8 YouTube video 0 Introduction So this is Janet Fiskio from Oberlin College, and I'm here with Mr. Nashid Rushdan and also Courtney Walker, and this is part of the Africatown Digital Archive Project. Introduction 24 Reverting to Islam Okay. Some people say convert, meaning you've got [to make] a change over from something that you have not had knowledge of. I say revert because I feel that somewhere down in my [lineage], was Muslims, either in this country or Africa Mr. Nashid discusses reverting islam and why he uses the word revert v. convert. Africa ; convert ; islam ; Mohammad 199 Ancestors and Ancestry in Alabama Janet: And so, your ancestors -- when do you think that they came to Alabama? Do you know when they came? Mr. Nashid: I don't -- the far as I've gone back, I've looked on ancestry.com, and I got up to...the records show the 1890's census was destroyed in a fire. Mr. Nashid discusses his family history in Alabama and how far back he was able to trace his family history. 1890 ; Ancestry ; census ; father ; fire 352 Islam in Africa and Alabama I think earlier, you said though, that you know that your ancestors came from the west coast of Africa and that Islam was an important religion there. Could you tell me some about that? Like, do you think that maybe some of the people who came to Alabama on the Clotilda, do you know that some of them were Muslim? Is that right? A lengthy discussion on different aspects of Islam and Muslims in Africa and the United States, specifically Alabama, including some history on the movement of Islam from Africa to the United States. Africa ; Cudjo Lewis ; Cudjoe Lewis ; Islam ; Muslims ; West Coast ; Zora Neale Hurston 1057 Islam, Hope, and Names Can you tell me, if you want -- if you feel comfortable -- what is it that Islam gives you in terms of that unique thing or that hope? Because sometimes this feels like -- I mean, I think there have been a lot of difficult times, right? You were saying you grew up under segregation, and then this gave you hope. Can you tell me more about that? Mr. Nashid discusses how Islam has influenced many aspects of his life, including his name and how he thinks about race. Alabama ; heal ; healing ; Islam ; Mobile ; names ; slave ; slave master 1508 Mr. Nashid Rushdan’s Name Back when our name book was compiled -- a list of names -- and I went through the book reading each name to see the meaning of the name. And my first name, Nashid, means imploring God, the Creator. My middle name is Adib, which means good mannered, serious-minded, cultivated -- although I wasn't cultivated at that time, but I eventually grow. And Rushdan means rightly guided. Mr. Nashid discusses how and why he chose his name and how that impacted his life and relationship with his family. God ; Islam ; Muslim ; names 1670 Names and Tracing Family Heritage There are Caucasians that are in the religion, but they can trace their heritage back, whereas we could not. Cause I don't know exactly where in Africa that my foreparents came from, I have an idea of the areas based on the DNA -- my DNA -- that's prevalent in that area. I could say, hey, this be the area, but to go to a certain spot and say, 'you're my family'. I can't do that, but I'll be in the ballpark, whereas you, Janet, can trace your heritage back Mr. Nashid discusses the ability to trace family lineage back through names and the unique and difficult reality Black people face in learning their family history and their names. Africa ; family ; heritage ; home ; lineage ; name ; names 1855 Being Muslim in Mobile Yeah, there are around six...five, six mosques or centers. And compared to the Nation of Islam days time and now, it's different. It's more accepted now. During the Nation of Islam, we was somewhat anti-America up until 1975 when the leadership changed. Imam Muhammad put us in a different direction by the grace of God -- guided us into a different direction. I can remember going out, selling papers, standing on the corner trying to sell them. Muhammad speaks to people, and people rejected it. 'Get that paper out of my face! I don't want that.' Mr. Nashid discusses aspects of being Muslim in Mobile including his relationship with his family, with other people, and the gradual shift in perceptions of Islam and Muslim people. acceptance ; Mobile ; Mosque ; Muslim ; names 2144 Islam in the United States So the difference now, we are not considered to be on a terrorist list as the Nation of Islam was once on the list of the Hoover situation, during that time the FBI [had us listed as a threat to the United States]. But now, we are model citizens. We support this country. We're in the military, we're in different jobs, we're in the House of Representatives, we are mayors of cities, we are council members, we are mailmen, other professions -- professors of colleges and universities Mr. Nashid discusses the history of (in)tolerance of islam in the United States and how he seen positive change in his time and feels hopeful for the future. Christian ; Christianity ; Islam ; Jewish ; Judaism ; Muslim ; Religion 2613 Muslim People in Africatown something I never got to ask earlier but I wanted to bring it up -- I remember, it was maybe a year ago -- more than a year ago -- you said that the graves of the people who came on the Clotilda face east. Mr. Nashid: Mhm, yeah. Janet: And that -- I heard, and I think many of us heard the story that, well, it faces back toward Africa, but then you said that you thought that that could be connected to facing toward Mecca. And that sounded like another...maybe hint, that there were Muslim influences or maybe that Muslim members of the Clotilda -- I was just remembering that, so... Mr. Nashid discusses the possible presence of Africans in Africatown who were Muslim. He references the orientation of graves in the Africatown Graveyard, a historic landmark, in which the original African's graves are facing East, potentially toward Mecca. Africa ; Africatown ; Alabama ; burial ; graves ; Graveyard ; Islam ; Mecca ; Mobile 2978 Importance and Difference of Language in the Qur’an So you mentioned the importance of reading the Qur'an in its original text, and I was wondering if you could speak about that importance of language a little bit more? I think it's maybe -- it ties into the renaming as well. I was wondering. Mr. Nashid: The renaming? Zimmy: Yeah, choosing a new name. Mr. Nashid: Oh, my name! Zimmy: I was wondering if that, kind of, importance of language you could speak to. Mr. Nashid discusses his opinions on reading the Qur'an in its original language, Arabic, and how its translation can reduce or simplify its deeper meanings. Arab ; Arabic ; Islam ; Language ; Muslim ; Qur’an ; translation 3421 False Narratives of Islam/Media Shaping Perception of Islam I will say this ; for years, the narrative of the religion was shaped by the media, and I will say that that was a false narrative in some regards. And there are some books that are written by people who have a name -- a Muslim name -- but they may not be Muslim. I met a doctor recently, and his -- I won't call his name -- but he's from the Middle East, but he's not Muslim. But when we see, let's say, Nashid, we're like okay, that's a Muslim name. There are some people with Muhammad, the name, but they're not Muslim. Mr. Nashid talks about how the media has perpetuated harmful stereotypes and misconceptions about Islam and Muslim people. the difference between having an Islamic name and being Muslim., and solidarity between People of the Book. Allah ; God ; Islam ; Language ; Media ; Muslim ; Narratives 3937 Interpretations of Islam Well, I will say this here, the community of -- we call ourselves the 'stunga' -- of Imam W.D. Muhammad. He passed -- he transitioned -- in 2008. And we're still teaching the logic that he taught, which was -- he taught the Qur'an and the life example of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). 1:06:11 Now, there's a common word that’s used, and I've been asked, 'Are you Sunni or are you... or what are you?' Okay, the Sunni, they say, we follow the way of the Prophet. And actually, Prophet Muhammad did not say he was Sunni, it's those who came afterward that said, in looking at how he dealt with things that was presented to him, based on using the scripture. Mr. Nashid discusses about how he self-identifies within the Muslim community making a specific point to distance himself from both Sunni and Shia as well as Orthodox Muslims. Bible ; God ; Islam ; Muslim ; Orthodox ; Shia ; Sunni 4414 Solidarity Between Religions of the Book? What we need, but -- just, I would say since you're gone be there -- Google W.D. Muhammad. You can go on YouTube, see his name, you'll see his talk. Just listen to the talk. We have a tendency to not want to listen to people that are not of our same whatever. But listen to the message. Like Dr. C. Eric Lincoln, he was in [Duke University], but what he said made sense to me, you know? So truth come in all people, and all people look different, but if you look at some of the teachings -- practically all the talks that he does on YouTube now -- look for the logic. And he told us to follow the logic to its conclusion. And that what your professor probably teach you: 'Okay, where is this taking you?' Mr. Nashid explores the steps and processes of learning and " ; discovering" ; new information and understandings. He stresses that we must be grateful to Allah for opening up new information to us. Allah ; Islam ; Muslim ; progress ; technology 4934 Accountability, Morality, and Jinn 'By the grace of God I've learned this.' And then more things will open up, but that's the selfishness in people where we want to take the credit -- we want to be better than the other one, and that only come about from a spirit that's in us. In the religion of Al-Islam, we say 'the jinn'. That's a spirit that's -- appetite that's unchecked. A spirit that's unchecked. And if you don't watch it, it'll have you doing things that -- within your own nature Mr. Nashid discusses the intricacies of self-accountability, morality, and Islamic teachings on Jinn. Accountability ; Islam ; Jinn ; Morality ; Nature 5141 Interfaith Life and Relationships But what we're doing -- we're not trying to convert people from their religion. I say, if you're Christian, be a good one. My daughter and I go at it -- my daughter. She says, 'Dad, I want to be a Christian.' Okay, be a good one. Her problem -- the problem that we have -- is, she want to thank Jesus and not thank God, but her mother was Christian so that's what she learned. She learned that, so... And we'll get off the phone when we get to that point because-- Mr. Nashid discusses teaching Islam and navigating an interfaith family Africatown ; Allah ; family ; God ; Interfaith ; Islam 5453 Thoughts on Freedom of Religion and False Narratives of Islam, and Interconnectivity And it's not Al-Islam to go and call yourself a suicide bomber and you be a martyr. You going to hell. Cause God says do not kill yourself. That's in the fourth chapter, verse 28. Don't kill yourself! So you strap on something and say, 'I'm being a martyr and I'm fighting in the cause of God.' No. You don't fight in the cause of God that way. Cause you put your standard of fighting in what you're saying for God. You should have the standard that God say you should fight for, versus, I come up with my own take and this is what I'm gone do. So God never said fight like that, cause that's not...that's not... Too many innocent people killed. You're gonna go and kill an innocent person that has nothing to do with what's going on? I'm sitting here eating, me and my family, and next thing I know, boom. And I don't know where it come from. That's not Al-Islam, and that's not being a martyr. Mr. Nashid discusses respecting different religions and how acts of terrorism do not follow the teachings of the Qur'an or Islam. He emphasizes the teachings of Islam promote peace, intellectualism, war as only the very last resort, and the intrinsic value of human life. He concludes by reflecting on the interconnectivity of the world right now. Feminism ; Freedom ; interconnectivity ; Islam ; Israel ; Palestine ; Religion Oral History Salutation With the Name Allah, The Merciful Benefactor, The Merciful Redeemer, The Prayers and the Peace be upon all His Messengers. Janet: So this is Janet Fiskio from Oberlin College, and I' ; m here with Mr. Nashid Rushdan and also Courtney Walker, and this is part of the Africatown Digital Archive Project. It' ; s March 30th, 2019 and I wanted to emphasize that the copyright for this interview belongs to Mr. Nashid, so if you' ; re interested in using this interview for educational purposes, you should contact him, and that information is on the archive website. 00:28 So Mr. Nashid, I wanted to start out--I know that you are Muslim, and I think that you converted later in life, is that right? Mr. Nashid: Yes, reverted. I considered-- Janet: Reverted. Tell me about that, because you' ; ve used that word before. We' ; ll start there. 00:44 Mr. Nashid: Okay. Some people say convert, meaning you' ; ve got [to make] a change over from something that you have not had knowledge of. I say revert because I feel that somewhere down in my [lineage], was Muslims, either in this country or Africa, and it went dormant for a while and then it manifested itself out in me. For me to accept the religion as I did back in 1972, and then studying the Nation of Islam' ; s teachings, even though it was not per se a religious teaching, but it was more of a social teaching -- the Nation of Islam' ; s teachings during that time. 01:34 And as I said earlier, the leader -- the honorable Elijah Muhammad -- we [identify] him as a social reformer, not a religious reformer [per se]. But he took religion and put some of the religion, at least the practice of it, and changed it up where we were emphasizing the religious, but it mostly was a reforming of our minds. Of our thinking. And that' ; s why I said he is -- in our understanding -- a social reformer. 02:15 Now, on the other hand, his son, who' ; s name is Imam W. Deen Muhammad (or Warith D. Muhammad) -- and you can find his speeches and a lot of his talks on YouTube -- he took the Nation of Islam, took over [the] leadership, and he put us on the path of the religion of Al-Islam as taught by Prophet Muhammad over fourteen-hundred years ago (peace be upon him), and following the Qur' ; anic teaching more than what we did during the Nation of Islam time.02:52 So I say revert. So for me, there' ; s something in me -- in my DNA -- where it manifests itself out in me at this particular time, which would have been 1972, that it attracted me. And we know if something attracts us, it has to be something already there to feed the interest in it, and then you pursue it, and that' ; s what I did. 03:24 Janet: And so, your ancestors -- when do you think that they came to Alabama? Do you know when they came? Mr. Nashid: I don' ; t -- the far as I' ; ve gone back, I' ; ve looked on ancestry.com, and I got up to...the records show the 1890' ; s census was destroyed in a fire. So that blocked me from going [further]. I looked at the 1880 [census], but I didn' ; t find any [information] on my great-grandfather. Who his parents [were]. And there was no other record, although ancestry [did] have marriage records, birth records, but most of the birth [and marriage] records were maintained by the slave owners on that plantation. So it wouldn' ; t have been like now when a birth happens, it' ; s public record and recorded by the vital statistics at the board of health. So, that' ; s as far as I can go back. Janet: So you think that -- I think you said earlier you thought that maybe you' ; d have five generations of your family here? Mr. Nashid: Yeah, I was counting back on my father, my grandfather, my great-grandfather, and my great great-grandfather -- that' ; s where it got lost at. Identifying who he was and I just gave up then, cause the key was the 1890' ; s census, to keep going, you have a reference point to see ; okay, so my great-grandfather, I think the name was -- and it was a common name back then -- Templer, something like that... But you could see who his father was, and that' ; s cut off from the 1890' ; s census, due to the fire. 05:51 Janet: I didn' ; t know that. That' ; s sad, that' ; s sad thinking about what was lost. I think earlier, you said though, that you know that your ancestors came from the west coast of Africa and that Islam was an important religion there. Could you tell me some about that? Like, do you think that maybe some of the people who came to Alabama on the Clotilda, do you know that some of them were Muslim? Is that right? 06:17 Mr. Nashid: No, I don' ; t know of them other than wife of Mr. Cudjoe Lewis. In Miss Dioufe -- Sylviane A. Dioufe, in her book she mentioned about the wife of Mr. Cudjoe Lewis, and her demeanor and her character. And she stated that that depicted a Muslim woman, in the manner which she carried herself and how...let' ; s see, how did she say it? I can' ; t quote it right now, but she mentions she had to be -- based on her character, how she conducts herself, her conduct and everything. So that' ; s what tells me that there were at least one on the ship, of the hundred-and-ten.07:17 Now, whether or not she was on the ship, I don' ; t know that for certain because I have not been able to gather that information. Hopefully I can in the future. I' ; ve just gotten a book by Ms Natalie Robertson, [and the name of the book is The Slave Ship Clotilda and the Making of AfricaTown, USA]. So I' ; m going to read her book to see if she identified anything in her book about Mr. Cudjoe' ; s wife and about Muslim period. Considering the time that the Africans were brought here, they were not allowed to be taught or read or write anything, so it wasn' ; t any recording done. And by them not knowing the language good, you know, because even in Miss Dioufe' ; s book, she quotes Mr. Lewis and you can tell that some of the words he utilized, it was not exactly the English word, but they sound like -- it' ; s the English word, but they gave it a sound that made it... Whether or not they understood the meaning, that' ; s a whole nother ball game in itself. So, I can' ; t say specifically that there was Muslims on the boat, but I do know from history that the majority of the Muslims concentrated on the west coast of Africa, and a majority of the Africans that were bought -- brought here, rather -- was from the west coast. Janet: Right. And I read that there were other parts of the country where I read the history and they said enslaved peoples were Muslim, but then there' ; s also the pressure to convert, right? When people convert to Christianity, whatever the religion was that someone brought with them. 09:38 Mr. Nashid: Well, that was... there is a story, I' ; m trying to get the one, his name I think is Omar Said, [and he was taken Charleston, South Carolina] where his slave owner found him writing the Qur' ; an in Arabic. And so he questioned him about it, but he told him he had to read a Bible -- I think I got the right person -- and so they exchanged -- I think the agreement was, I' ; ll read the Bible and I' ; ll teach you the Qur' ; an, but I' ; m not clear how that story goes. It' ; s been some years. But he does it -- it' ; s Omar Ibn Said, you can Google him, it' ; s on YouTube -- well, it' ; s on the internet. 10:58 Then there was the prince of Natchez, Mississippi. The prince of Natchez, Mississippi, and his name [is Abd al-Rahman], but Natchez, Mississippi is not far from [Mobile, Alabama]. Well, he was Muslim and he eventually ended up getting his freedom, but he could not take his family with him because the owner of the plantation home would not allow his wife or his children to leave. So he went back home, and he was recognized by a Caucasian that was a writer or something, I think -- don' ; t hold me to it. And he recognized him from -- he was an ambassador! -- he recognized him from travelling to the country that he was from. 12:01 But you can Google that same thing and get that. So, there were Muslims here long before the Muslims of the Middle East started migrating to America. And they were brought over by [the slave owners] to be servants.12:24 How the prince got captured -- I think Mr. Cudjoe got captured. Yeah, he was captured, and there were some [situations] where the Africans sold other Africans, and that may be true, but I don' ; t think that they sold them, or exchanged them for good, that they [knew what] our foreparents [were going to encounter] in terms of slavery. Because, remember, this was the new world as they termed it, so they might have thought that -- and it' ; s a particular instructor that I had that pointed this out -- that they, and I can' ; t say his name because I haven' ; t come to him, but anyway, they saw an opportunity. You know, going to the new world, that they can, and I' ; m quoting him, that they can go and perhaps bring something back to help them. But they didn' ; t realize that they was going to the type of slavery that our people encountered, which has never been before in the history of mankind. But that' ; s another story in itself too. 13:56 So now with the hundred-and-ten, to specifically say that I can identify them, no, but I do think that they were. They were Janet: Well I think -- I mean, I don' ; t know the history probably nearly as well as you do, but my sense is that some people converted and then their families and their histories would' ; ve gotten recorded in the churches, but then the people who didn' ; t convert, we wouldn' ; t necessarily know their stories. We wouldn' ; t know what happened to those families, or they might not have gotten recorded in the same ways, right? So... 14:33 Mr. Nashid: Yeah. And even with the -- I' ; m sorry. Janet: No, go ahead. Mr. Nashid: Even with the ones that converted some, I was reading in Miss Zora Neale Hurston' ; s book in which she interviewed Mr. Lewis, and he said he never knew that God had a son. That was foreign to him, but that' ; s the way that Christianity was projected in this country at that time. So, I thought that was very interesting for him to say that, and we recognize Christ. In Islam, we recognize Christ as one of the prophet messengers of God, not the son of God. 15:43 And so when I read that, my mind went to thinking not that he was Muslim there or he practiced Islam, he could have been Christian there, but the belief wasn' ; t like the trinitarian belief that is practiced in this country here. It' ; s something that makes you want to think about him to have said that and her quoting that in the book. Because she had control of the writing, you know, so that was interesting. 16:22 But there is, I would say, the influence and the impact of the religion of Al-Islam, particularly in the African American community, that' ; s not emphasized much and not talked about much in terms of the history. And I' ; m not sure if it was -- well, let me say this here ; the Nation of Islam' ; s teaching, a lot of our own people -- when I say our own people, African American people -- rejected the teaching. Some out of fear, some they was used to one thing and they didn' ; t want to make a change, and whatever other reasons they may have had. But those of us who reverted, those who converted, identified something in it that was unique and it gave them hope for humanity and that things would get better. 17:41 Janet: Can you tell me, if you want -- if you feel comfortable -- what is it that Islam gives you in terms of that unique thing or that hope? Because sometimes this feels like -- I mean, I think there have been a lot of difficult times, right? You were saying you grew up under segregation, and then this gave you hope. Can you tell me more about that? 18:07 Mr. Nashid: Well, personally, going back to the Nation of Islam teachings, when I heard and read the book, Message to the Blackman, that was by [the honorable] Elijah Muhammad, and the experience that our people was experiencing from the ignorance of Caucasian people -- not all, but some. And when he quoted saying that the so-called white man was the devil, okay in my mind, I' ; m looking at all that had happened in my family life.18:57 I can remember walking home with my father, and there was a gentleman -- a Caucasian gentleman -- he had a vegetable truck, we called him vegetable man. He grew vegetables and he' ; d come through the neighborhood selling them. Well, Vegetable Man, he had gotten...a little juicy. He was drunk, and he was sitting on this particular church step on the street, and I asked my daddy, okay why are the police holding him? Which, then, was African American policemen. And my father said, well he can' ; t arrest him, all he can is hold him. I said, well why can' ; t he hold him. [He said,] well, he' ; s a white man, he can' ; t do that. We don' ; t do that, you know? So, that resonating in my mind stayed with me till today. And it still was like, I think I was quite a teenager then. I was quite a teenager then. 19:59 And, there' ; s another thing that the Nation of Islam did ; give up the slave master name. The last name. So we took X. Everyone had an X. If it was three or four brothers or sisters in the same temple at that time that had the same first name, then you would be X Temple. You' ; d be X1, X2, X3. 2X, 3X, like that. That' ; s how it went up with the same -- to differentiate between which sister was what, because we did not identify with the last name. So, there was an experience I had at a grocery store in Mobile, and I walked in the store and this Caucasian man said to this clerk -- it was a young lady, African American -- he said, you have my name. And he shouted, loud. I said, wow, what do you mean by that? ' ; You have my name.' ; Her name was the same name as his name, and I talked about it to my grandmother, and she couldn' ; t explain it. She said, I don' ; t know, son, but maybe one day you' ; ll find out, so I did. When I read in the Nation of Islam Message to the Blackman that we have our slave master' ; s name. And I asked my family about the Lewis family which was not from Mobile but from another part of Alabama, and some of the older ones said, well, you know our parents came off of this Lewis plantation. And so we -- most African-American people have now -- and then -- took on when they were released, they took on the slave master' ; s [last] name and kept it. But they were known as properties of so-and-so, and that was during that period of time, okay? And we took that name so my parents, they just took that name. So when I [joined] the Nation of Islam, I was X Lewis. My name was initialed -- my father' ; s name was L.B. Lewis, and I had initials L.B. and Lewis Jr. I didn' ; t like the first name, and I grew to not like the last name when I started understanding the Nation of Islam. And we transitioned from the Nation of Islam into the religion of Al-Islam under the leadership of Imam W.D. Muhammad.23:15 We started changing names, and the thing that he brought out to us, he said, ' ; You look at your name, your last name is Jones and there' ; s a Caucasian family named Jones. You' ; re all in the same area of the city. Then you remind them of what their foreparents did to your foreparents.' ; So that would be a way to resolve the healing from the experience of slavery, in terms of reminding a Caucasian person with Jones, in this day and time, that someone in his family had someone in the Jones family under servitude. And that issue, after the slavery period supposedly ended, socially, it was not addressed as to how to heal it.24:25 Because there was bitterness for the one that was the slave, and then towards the one that was not. It just went on, went on. So if we can -- and you can -- break the chains of being property of someone else, so most of the ones in our community, we changed our -- in fact, everyone -- changed the last name. Some kept the first name, but the emphasis was on changing the last name because that' ; s how we are identified, by our last name. You know, that' ; s just the way it is, how we identify. Janet: How did you choose the name you have now? 25:14 Mr. Nashid: Back when our name book was compiled -- a list of names -- and I went through the book reading each name to see the meaning of the name. And my first name, Nashid, means imploring God, the Creator. My middle name is Adib, which means good mannered, serious-minded, cultivated -- although I wasn' ; t cultivated at that time, but I eventually grow. And Rushdan means rightly guided. So I looked at that, I said, okay, this is one I can work towards, I am doing that -- seeking God for protection and help. I am a serious-minded person, but I can be better. And I' ; m seeking -- constantly seeking guidance from the Creator, and that will be the right guidance for everyone to seek that. So that' ; s how I did that, and that was done in... I think I did it -- chose in like December -- the latter part of December 1976, early part of January ' ; 77. Went through probate court, had it legally done, and the judge signed off you' ; ve legally changed your name. Went through the court system to do that. Yeah, so that' ; s what we did. 26:49 So my children, their name, had theirs, went through court for them. My wife went through court for them, had everybody' ; s name changed except one of my children, when he was born, he didn' ; t have to go through that cause I had already done it. So -- *phone rings* oh, excuse me. *silences phone* So, that' ; s what I did, that' ; s how I chose it. The names have meanings to them -- different ones hold different names, based on the meaning I tried to merge [their] character into it, where it would enhance [their] character. So that' ; s how we did. 27:34 Now, we particularly did it for one religion. We identified by that, although the name does not qualify you to be a Muslim. There are Caucasians that are in the religion, but they can trace their heritage back, whereas we could not. Cause I don' ; t know exactly where in Africa that my foreparents came from, I have an idea of the areas based on the DNA -- my DNA -- that' ; s prevalent in that area. I could say, hey, this be the area, but to go to a certain spot and say, ' ; you' ; re my family' ; . I can' ; t do that, but I' ; ll be in the ballpark, whereas you, Janet, can trace your heritage back, and Zimmy -- how do I pronounce your name right? Zimmy: Yeah, Zimmy. Mr. Nashid: Zimmy. [They] can trace [their] heritage. Santiago can trace his, and Nathan can trace his, and...Courtney? You can trace yours. Yep. Well, she and I are in the same boat. We know our foreparents came from that part, but whereabouts, I don' ; t know. And Ehryn, she can trace hers. And that' ; s the thing, you want to have a place where you can trace where you come from -- trace that back and say, my people came from this country. Cause everybody here is immigrants. The difference between us as African Americans, we didn' ; t volunteer to come, we were forced to come, while others volunteered to come. So this is my country now. Where my foreparents are from, that would be where I hail from, but in my travels, I wouldn' ; t wanna live nowhere else other than where I am now.30:00 In the travels that I' ; ve done to see other parts of the world -- by the grace of God I' ; ve been here and there, so this is home. My foreparents worked here, the establishment of it, I feel that they helped in that. Establishing and building the country up, so this is my home and my ethnicity traced back to somewhere else, just like your family. Your ethnicity traced back, but this is your home. And if you' ; re from what part of Europe, you could go and visit, but you just can' ; t say that that' ; s home because that' ; s where you' ; re from but this is home. So that' ; s how we do that. 30:56 Janet: What is it like to be Muslim in Mobile? Is there a mosque here? What' ; s your community like? Mr. Nashid: Yeah, there are around six...five, six mosques or centers. And compared to the Nation of Islam days time and now, it' ; s different. It' ; s more accepted now. During the Nation of Islam, we was somewhat anti-America up until 1975 when the leadership changed. Imam Muhammad put us in a different direction by the grace of God -- guided us into a different direction. I can remember going out, selling papers, standing on the corner trying to sell them. Muhammad speaks to people, and people rejected it. ' ; Get that paper out of my face! I don' ; t want that.' ; Having different family members say, ' ; Boy, you was born this way,' ; -- the older people talking to you -- ' ; You was born this way, and that' ; s what you are. You come in here with this here...whatever that is.' ; They didn' ; t even want to identify, and when I changed my name? Ooh, my. It was just like World War III, you know? I had all kinds of family saying -- not only family, but outside -- ' ; Well, you' ; re this and you were born this way, you gone be this here...' ; And I just listened, and eventually my grandmother was the first one to accept what I decided on. Then I had an aunt -- two other aunts. Those three women was very influential in my life, they accepted and another aunt -- in fact, she the one really who told them and said, ' ; if he chose that, you all should accept him. Y' ; all know how he is, y' ; all know this, y' ; all know that, and he' ; s thinking--' ; I' ; m using the term now, ' ; --he' ; s thinking outside the box. He' ; s doing his own thing.' ; 33:47 And then my grandma said, look, you right, so they accepted. And my mother accepted it. And I have other friends and people as well, they call me by my former name. ' ; That' ; s your name!' ; and I say, no, this is -- I went through the courts and this is legal. The courts identified, so why you can' ; t accept it? And I' ; ve had experiences where people -- I' ; ll tell them my name -- adult people -- tell them my name, they can' ; t say it. But I can tell that three-year-old my name and they say it just as fluently as I did. And what I noticed with that was -- cause I challenged some people, I would tell them, I said well look, so-and-so just said it, and how old are they? But they weren' ; t discriminative, they accepted it, whereas the older ones, they didn' ; t want to accept it. So that was long but eventually, everyone did. My family, my mother, and I tell people my mother carried me nine months. Went through pain, nine months of carrying me, when she birthed me, she went through pain. If she can accept it, I could care less about anyone else. So that made them think.35:19 And some still do -- and I still have some that call me by the other name, they say, ' ; oh, I forgot! I forgot.' ; And the classmates that haven' ; t seen me in a while -- in years -- well, that' ; s understandable. And then when I explain to them, they say, ' ; Okay, I' ; m working on it, brother.' ; So the difference now, we are not considered to be on a terrorist list as the Nation of Islam was once on the list of the Hoover situation, during that time the FBI [had us listed as a threat to the United States]. But now, we are model citizens. We support this country. We' ; re in the military, we' ; re in different jobs, we' ; re in the House of Representatives, we are mayors of cities, we are council members, we are mailmen, other professions -- professors of colleges and universities. So the religion of Al-Islam and our community is accepted now more so than it was during the Nation of Islam time. And the younger generation, they didn' ; t have the experience, so they don' ; t quite value it as we do. Because we know how we got to what we are -- what it was before, and what it was-- We' ; ve had experiences, police arrive, say, ' ; Come on, give me that corner!' ; 37:13. ...Why? I' ; m just selling papers. I' ; m trying to help out people, you know? Going to the neighborhood, trying to help the people and trying to enlighten them on the lifestyle that they knew was not good and the police get called to us. Hey, they got this, doing that, and so things now, it' ; s a lot better. I mean, you can see the difference. Yeah. You are going to have a few that stray...you are going to have some that slide down, that seem to be anti-Muslim, but it' ; s not just anti-Muslim, it' ; s anti-Christian, it' ; s anti-Jews. For the things that happen in this country -- a synagogue being shot up because of the religion of a person, a church being shot up because the religion of the person, or the mosque being shot up, you know? So that' ; s a person that has lost their humanity, and they out of being a human being and fall in the enemy, which is the Devil, and no particular race of people -- and this is what Imam Muhammad introduced when he took the leadership -- no race of people is the Devil. And we used to say in the Nation of Islam, people said, ' ; What about so-and-so? He shot so-and-so!' ; Talking about, ' ; What about that Black brother over there? He shot so-and-so.' ; And we say, well the Devil taught him. *laughs* But that' ; s not -- no race of people. Because God made you! So we' ; re saying God made a Devil? No! No, no. So our community, under the leadership of Imam Warith Deen Muhammad -- W.D. Muhammad -- he brought us a sober understanding of the religion of Al-Islam, and presented it in a logical way. We understand it -- and the Qur' ; an. Understanding the Qur' ; anic Arabic, not translations. Even though they have some good translations, nothing wrong, but the knowledge of the Qur' ; an is in the grammar and understanding of how the grammar works that give more information. So you really have to know the Arabic language. 39:57 And I was telling one of my granddaughters who asked a question, I said it is recognized that the Qur' ; an is -- and it' ; s been recognized by the U.S. Congress, I think it was in 2005 or ' ; 4 -- not that the Qur' ; an needed validating, but they recognized that the Qur' ; an is still in its original text as it was received 1400 years ago. So I said to her, if this -- well not ' ; if' ; . I said, this is the last revelation that God sent to human beings, and I think the Muslim world went astray when they held the book back from people that were not already Muslim. Because they were not already Muslim when it came to them, so the book is for everybody. Whether you' ; re Christian, whether you' ; re Jewish, whether you' ; re Hindu, Buddhist. Anybody that believes in God, the book is for them. To follow the guidance. 41:03 So it' ; s like, you have an automobile you just bought. They give you the owner' ; s manual. Okay, two years later, they revise -- or give you, ' ; Hey, we found this about this here, so if you do this, this is better. Work with this.' ; So, revelation comes in different increments. Different times. And the Qur' ; an being the following one to man. Like Christians have the Bible, Jewish people have the Torah, and the Buddhists, they have what they call the Enlightenment, and other religions have... As long as they recognize a higher authority, and that' ; s the creator of the whole universe. And we have to accept that. So now you have attacked -- Christians are attacked, Muslims are attacked, Jews are attacked, Sikhs are attacked. You have to ask yourself, are they attacking them because of their religion, or are they attacking them because they' ; re living the way God said live. And that person should be living that way, and it should be reflected with a reflection of your soul. I had a good friend -- I say ' ; had' ; because he passed -- he used to introduce me as, ' ; This is my good Muslim friend.' ; And I introduced him as, ' ; This is my good Christian friend,' ; -- and he was Caucasian -- and we were good friends. You know, and that' ; s how we introduced each other, so we respected. I respected him, he respected me, and we talked about my religion and we talked about his religion. So, this day and time, the religion compared to the Nation of Islam time -- compared to when the Africans was bought here, that was Muslim and then they denied to even talk about anything that they had at home -- this is the good time. It' ; s a great day. It' ; s a great day for everybody. Great day for everybody. 43:23 Janet: Courtney I wanted to see if you had questions that you wanted to have a chance to ask. Courtney: *unintelligible* Janet: Are you sure? If you think of some, let me know. This is circling back -- something I never got to ask earlier but I wanted to bring it up -- I remember, it was maybe a year ago -- more than a year ago -- you said that the graves of the people who came on the Clotilda face east. Mr. Nashid: Mhm, yeah. Janet: And that -- I heard, and I think many of us heard the story that, well, it faces back toward Africa, but then you said that you thought that that could be connected to facing toward Mecca. And that sounded like another...maybe hint, that there were Muslim influences or maybe that Muslim members of the Clotilda -- I was just remembering that, so... 44:16 Mr. Nashid: Yeah. Yeah, we are -- where we are located now, we are westward of Mecca, and the Muslim burial, you' ; re buried with your head opposite of where some great sites are. Whereas it would be, even in the grave, you' ; re still in a praying position. And as the sun rises -- different times of prayer cause we pray five different times a day -- you' ; ll still be in that position, even though you' ; ve transitioned. But the way that you' ; ll -- when the body has deteriorated, gone back to...dissolved -- that you will still be, some would just say symbolically, praying that way. Even though you' ; ve transitioned from this life to the next life. 45:38 And the headstones are -- the stones that they have, headstones -- they' ; re at the opposite end instead of being facing westward, they' ; re facing eastward. That' ; s my thinking, based on the practice that -- that' ; s how we [are buried] today. When we' ; re buried today or someone in the religion passes, wherever they are, that' ; s the way that they would be buried. That the body would be placed a certain way into the grave. Like that. So that, that' ; s the thinking that I have. Personally, I really need to look -- calculation-wise, I know that we are west of Africa, but all that area is still within the Middle East. So that' ; s why I say that they were leaving some signs that they were here. Although, their -- and it' ; s in the record book that even with the navigator, one of the navigators on the ship was a Muslim. With Columbus when he came. That' ; s something that' ; s been said, that the navigator was a Muslim. Janet: He' ; s from Spain, and there were Muslims in Spain. 47:22 Mr. Nashid: Yeah, there are Muslims in Spain, yes. The Moors. Yeah, in fact, under the Spanish rule for 5...almost 5, about 600 years, the Muslim rule and the people of Spain were dealt with justly, you know? As it was established and they was duplicating how Prophet Muhammad established the city of Medina and where he recognized everyone that was there and everyone was equal. He did not force the Christians to convert, he didn' ; t force the Jews to convert, you know, you have a right to your own freedom. The religion that you want to do. If you like Al-Islam, then you choose it. There' ; s no compulsion, no force. Long as you recognize the Creator, the thing that we understand where in the Christian religion, that we have the situation with associating another entity or equating another entity with God and breaking God up into sections. That' ; s not right. But in terms of him, they have full rights, from my studies, in the city of Medina (also called the City of Light).49:00 Medina means city, town -- that he established. All you had -- the requirement was you pay taxes. And everybody received the benefits of the taxes in terms of protection and just like we pay taxes here, and the government utilizes it. Some pay their fair share and some don' ; t, but yeah. That' ; s what -- back to the grave site and that area. 49:38 Zimmy: So you mentioned the importance of reading the Qur' ; an in its original text, and I was wondering if you could speak about that importance of language a little bit more? I think it' ; s maybe -- it ties into the renaming as well. I was wondering. Mr. Nashid: The renaming? Zimmy: Yeah, choosing a new name. Mr. Nashid: Oh, my name! Zimmy: I was wondering if that, kind of, importance of language you could speak to. 50:10 Mr. Nashid: Oh, yeah. You have different -- several translations of the Qur' ; an, and Yusuf Ali is -- I' ; m not going to say that all of them are bad because in one language, what a word means, it doesn' ; t necessarily mean the same in another language. So you have the Qur' ; an, and if -- you can get in online, you can get it at Barnes & ; Noble, they' ; re big sellers of it. I' ; m not sure about BooksAMillion, but I know you can go on Amazon and get it. But if you get one, I would recommend getting one with the Arabic text, where you can see. I would not get one that is a Koran with only the English because the Arabic text, that' ; s the Qur' ; an, not the translation. Whether it' ; s in French, Chinese, German, the translation is not -- the Qur' ; an was received by Prophet Muhammad who was an Arab, so the tongue -- lisaan, t is tongue in Arabic. So a word may mean something in Arabic and they try best to look at the English that would fit that particular meaning of that word. And you might have several words that may mean...uh, may mean... Wait a minute -- you may have a word in English that has several meanings. Okay, now in the Arabic, the verb form of the word and the noun form may vary. And the verb form depends on -- you have basically ten verb forms in the Arabic language, and the form of the verb will dictate the meaning of the verb, but, more importantly is, that particular form of the verb gives you the degree of that word. Where it' ; s like the verb form two is intensity and causation, where if it' ; s the word that is Arabic and is saying ' ; to read' ; , okay? It tells you it is a form two word, then it' ; s telling you to read with intensity. And the causation would come from a source outside, what would cause you to read with that intensification would be that one. And, like form eight verb form would be reflexive. So you have to read with intensity from within to get and then have a meaning. 53:40 So, when I said earlier about the grammar, giving you the essence of the word and in an Arabic dictionary -- some Arabic dictionaries, one in particular, is Hanz Wehr who was a German, but he translated Arabic into English in the forms of the verb. Form one may mean one thing, form two means a different thing, form three is reciprocal, form four is causation but its within. There' ; s something in us to cause us to...eat that orange. *laughs* It looks good too. Uh, so in knowing the grammar of the word, and then you look at the whole context of the verse, whereas it' ; s gone give you information ; who' ; s doing it, who' ; s talking, who' ; s receiving it. Who' ; s doing the talking, and then who' ; s receiving it. But the English doesn' ; t tell you that, it just tells you, for example, in the Al-Fatiha, it says, ' ; Thee do we serve, and thine aid do we seek.' ; 55:07. Okay? But when you look at the Arabic, it tells you who we serve, and whose aid we seek. Versus you just see aid and you' ; re seeking. Well whose aid are you seeking? So there' ; s a big difference there, in the Qur' ; anic. And the names that we pick, most of the names -- my last name, I can find it out in the Qur' ; an. A lot of us last names are taken from the Qur' ; an -- some of them first names. And where my name -- one verse talked about right conduct. You know, right conduct and how all of us as human beings have to have the right conduct. So that' ; s the importance of the language versus looking at the translation, because if you look at -- one time it was the Greek, then the Greek translated to the Italian, and so forth so forth. And as it changed, it loses its value, or its essence. But in that language that it' ; s translated, the essence of it is there, but the original essence of the tongue that it came from is not there. 56:54 Janet: Were there other things that you wanted to have a chance to talk about? Or that you' ; re... Mr. Nashid: Umm...I will say this ; for years, the narrative of the religion was shaped by the media, and I will say that that was a false narrative in some regards. And there are some books that are written by people who have a name -- a Muslim name -- but they may not be Muslim. I met a doctor recently, and his -- I won' ; t call his name -- but he' ; s from the Middle East, but he' ; s not Muslim. But when we see, let' ; s say, Nashid, we' ; re like okay, that' ; s a Muslim name. There are some people with Muhammad, the name, but they' ; re not Muslim. And there are people... so the media, they can be more truthful in the narrative that they are presenting. And like, with the word ' ; Allah,' ; years have gone by, people say, ' ; Well you worship another god.' ; Oh really? Okay, well then why do you say that? ' ; Well you say Allah is God.' ; I said, ' ; Yeah.' ; I say Allah is the Creator, but, in every language, there' ; s a word for the Creator. So Arabic speaking people -- because this is an Arabic name, and those who convert to the religion, we learn the Arabic language -- hopefully. Some do some don' ; t. But anyway, that' ; s the word that' ; s referred and that' ; s the word in the Qur' ; an is Allah, the God. ' ; Al' ; - the, ' ; Lah' ; - God.59:18 Spanish, it' ; s a different name -- what is it, Dios? Okay, French, I think it' ; s Duer? D-u-e-r, I think. German, I know ; Gott. Yeah, so every language, there' ; s a word for the Creator and that is [used] to identify the Creator. So Muslim -- and not so much Muslims, but people from the Middle East -- the language is the Arabic language. And they speak Arabic, but if you ask a Christian who is God, he' ; ll say Allah. Cause of the language. It' ; s only one Creator, who has many names. Good names. So we just say the God, and that' ; s it. 1:00:19 And being introduced to a [religion and a] language, and you not understanding [anything] -- not so much as the language, but the religion being introduced -- you' ; re coming in, you' ; re changing the narrative of that segment. And they' ; re gonna resist. They' ; re gonna come with -- because, we don' ; t like change, although change is good. And change is natural. If you look at it from the birth -- from the inception of a human being -- you change. Two sperms come together, the egg, they change into something, they change into something. And it' ; s in the Qur' ; an, in chapter 23 -- the development of the human being -- and it says the sperm drops a clot of congealed blood, then that changes to bones then flesh. The bones are covered by flesh and that' ; s the physical creation. And then you have the mind that had to develop. And that' ; s the essence of the person, it' ; s the mind. So what you learn at four years old, do you still stay with what you learned at four years old? And you are fourteen years old now. So change is good, that represents growth. 1:02:01 But we don' ; t like to change because we' ; re comfortable in that, and something else come along and it takes you out of that little comfort zone that you in, but it' ; s a good thing. Because it' ; s going to enhance and elevate you. So that' ; s the thing with the names. And I think the media can do a better job at presenting the narrative. In the Qur' ; an, it says that the woman should cover her head, cover her private parts. The word is ' ; khimar,' ; not hijab -- in the Qur' ; an. Now, if you look in the dictionary, the hijab is actually a wall or a partition. So we got *pointing to the wall* that' ; s a hijab right there, it separates that room from this room. *gesturing to another wall* That' ; s a hijab right there, it separates... And then next to that room, that room is a hijab. It' ; s just a partition or wall, but in the Qur' ; anic verse -- in the verse in the Qur' ; an -- it says khimar, which is a covering. And she' ; s to cover the private parts of her body. The upper part of her body, cover that, not expose, and to be moderate in her dress. And the same thing for the men -- to be moderate in their dress. What' ; s good for the goose is good for the gander. Well, what' ; s good for the woman is good for the man, in terms of religion. He' ; s to be modest as well and not reveal themselves like they do, because of the attraction that could lead to. Some things that are not good, *laughs* -- not lawful, I' ; ll put it that way. 1:04:16 So I think that the media could -- when they say hijab, I know they' ; re smart enough to know, but they not touching the religion, they' ; re just going by what they said -- a wall. But an Arabic speaking person would know you can' ; t wear a wall on your head. A wall is not -- although it' ; ll cover you from the sun, but in terms of the dress, but it' ; s talking about the man and woman being modest. And also, it' ; s the cover -- the breast area is where the heart lies, so you cover your heart and your heart is the sentiments. You just don' ; t let your sentiments go out to anybody. You be careful who you let your sentiments go out to, because they might -- you have to investigate them and check them out, make sure they' ; re worthy of having your sentiments. So you protect that. That' ; s just one meaning of the heart. 1:05:25 Janet: Is there anything else? Mr. Nashid: I mean, I could -- y' ; all ask me. Janet: Just wanted to make sure if there was anything you were hoping to talk to us about that you had a chance to do that. Mr. Nashid: Well, I will say this here, the community of -- we call ourselves the ' ; stunga' ; -- of Imam W.D. Muhammad. He passed -- he transitioned -- in 2008. And we' ; re still teaching the logic that he taught, which was -- he taught the Qur' ; an and the life example of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). 1:06:11 Now, there' ; s a common word that' ; s used, and I' ; ve been asked, ' ; Are you Sunni or are you... or what are you?' ; Okay, the Sunni, they say, we follow the way of the Prophet. And actually, Prophet Muhammad did not say he was Sunni, it' ; s those who came afterward that said, in looking at how he dealt with things that was presented to him, based on using the scripture. And what we say is, the uswa, meaning his character. We try to emulate the character because he lived the Qur' ; an, the demonstrated the Qur' ; an, according to his wife. She was asked about him, she said he was the Qur' ; an walking, so he lived the revelation, and we try to emulate that by applying the revelation in every situation that we encounter. And using the revelation to make the right decision and do the right thing. So I' ; m neither Sunni nor Orthodox -- that' ; s the other word -- and I' ; m not Shiite, because the Shiite, they actually causing a division, which is not right. And the Qur' ; an speaks against it, so if you read the Prophet [said] don' ; t set up sects. And that' ; s what they' ; ve done based on what was supposed to be the nephew of the Prophet -- that he should inherit that...whatever they call it. But it' ; s not Islam. That' ; s not Al-Islam. God chooses who he wants to bring about understanding in the period of time, like Imam Warith Deen Muhammad was -- is -- because the teachings or the logic or the ideology of the person, it doesn' ; t die. The person may transition, but their teaching doesn' ; t. And we read a history book where Methuselah lived to be so many hundreds of years, it wasn' ; t talking about his physical body living that long, it was talking about the leadership or the logic that he presented to humanity. It lives. 1:09:09 So we in the association of Imam Muhammad -- we' ; re the students, and we keep promoting that and utilizing it and presenting in a sober mind. And I do have a good friend that' ; s just launched his ministry -- one of the students -- it' ; s called Al-Islam Worldwide Ministry on Facebook, and this past Thursday was the second preview of it. Well, not preview, but presentation. It debuted last Thursday. So we are given the religion based on Imam Muhammad' ; s logical teaching, and applying the logic to it. Not that we are parroting him, or mimicking him, but we are looking at the logic that he got from the Qur' ; an, and then applying it in our everyday life and sharing it with humanity. Because that' ; s who -- the book is for human beings, not -- it doesn' ; t say ' ; a book for Muslims' ; . Nowhere does it say that, it say this is a book for those who believe in God. So if you' ; re Christian -- if you don' ; t have a religion but you believe in God and you want guidance. And it points out things that have been, I would say, erroneously put into the Bible from the translation that the Bible has undergone over the years. Scripture is not literal. There are similes, there are metaphors, and we have to look at what is the root of this here? What' ; s underneath here? What' ; s the word...? I mean, like, skin. Okay, you might say a word -- and in the Qur' ; an it said their skin was burned -- okay, but skin, if you noticed, when something crawls on you, it sends a message to you. Hey, that' ; s your sensitivities. So the sensitivities that we have, if they' ; re not good sensitivities in terms of, to be obedient to the Creator and to treat humanity with dignity and respect, then that' ; s not a good sensitivity. That is what would be burned up -- those bad sensitivities that we all house. You know? I have them, and you have them, and we work to get [rid of] those bad sensitivities. But, when you say the skin will be burned, you can' ; t take it like this skin right here *gesturing over his arm* gonna be burned and it' ; ll be a continuous burning. Well, we know that once something is lit on fire, it' ; s going to dissipate. So how is it continuously burning? So there' ; s another meaning there, so we have to look at scripture not just in the literal sense -- whether it' ; s Bible, Qur' ; an, Torah, or whatever the scripture, it' ; s a simile -- saying it' ; s ' ; like' ; something, or it' ; s a metaphor with a message that' ; s beneath what you see on the surface. And once you get to what' ; s beneath, you say. ' ; Ah, that makes sense.' ; *laughs* 1:12:45 And that' ; s the thing that, when I say the logic of Imam W.D. Muhammad, that God blessed him to see the logic of the Bible, to see the logic of the Qur' ; an. And the Old and New Testament with the Torah, and the New Testament with the Injil. And, um...share that. Cause we share with the logic that he applied and the understanding, of the Bible -- the language. It' ; s the understanding the language of that. 1:13:24 Janet: Thank you so much. Mr. Nashid: Okay! I hope this is -- Janet: Wonderful. It was great. Mr. Nashid: What we need, but -- just, I would say since you' ; re gone be there -- Google W.D. Muhammad. You can go on YouTube, see his name, you' ; ll see his talk. Just listen to the talk. We have a tendency to not want to listen to people that are not of our same whatever. But listen to the message. Like Dr. C. Eric Lincoln, he was in [Duke University], but what he said made sense to me, you know? So truth come in all people, and all people look different, but if you look at some of the teachings -- practically all the talks that he does on YouTube now -- look for the logic. And he told us to follow the logic to its conclusion. And that what your professor probably teach you: ' ; Okay, where is this taking you?' ; That' ; s the end? Zimmy: It just shut off, but my phone is still recording the audio. Mr. Nashid: Okay, yeah, so where is this logic gonna take you? It' ; s just not here for no reason. It' ; s taking you somewhere. So follow it and that' ; s -- in the Qur' ; an, follow the logic to its conclusion. That' ; s for everything in life. Follow that, just don' ; t, ' ; Well the logic says this here!' ; Well, okay, now where' ; s this gone take me? What am I to do? How am I to investigate this? And, what am I to look for and how is this gonna benefit me? 1:15:24 In Janet' ; s teachings at school, she gives them...what did she say, ' ; Well this is the synopsis for the class,' ; right? Janet: Mhm. Mr. Nashid: End of the quarter, you should be somewhere. And you gonna be further along than what you were... did I say synopsis? That' ; s right. Yeah, okay. You will be further along and know more than when I gave it to you, and that' ; ll be the conclusion of what I gave. And then when you go to the next level, you' ; re teaching something -- the synopsis of the class. And it' ; s going to lead you somewhere. 1:16:07 And Imam Muhammad said this to us: let the known lead you to the unknown, and the unknown lead you to the known. So now, this is what that means ; once you learn something, there' ; s more to learn about it cause the Creator will open up things to you. Take your camera right there -- um, no let' ; s take the phone. To record, we had the reel-to-reel, we had the eight track to record, now you got a phone. So from the first record -- the cassette recording -- or...the telephone! I remember people riding around with a telephone in their car, they had this long, tall antenna. Okay, now look what we got. But it took them from that point, that was known, it led them to the unknown, and now Apple and the other one -- what was the other one, Android? Whoever made that. They have the Android 6 and the Galaxy 6. They learnt something and it took you to another level. So that' ; s God opening up this knowledge of this universe. So that' ; s why I say, let the known lead you to the unknown that' ; s gone lead you to the known. And it' ; s a lot more of this universe out there. When I was in school, they told us it was nine planets, okay? So we got nine planets. How many do they tell you there is now? It' ; s numerous! And they say it' ; s only one sun. Now they' ; re saying there' ; s more suns -- *door opens* Ah, you made it! 1:18:10 Alright, yeah, so there are more suns out there -- more galaxies out there. *unintelligible* this is a vast universe -- that' ; s the word that we can use -- but only one known and that' ; s the Creator. So we are starting to learn more so that the known leads into the [unknown]. Now they got telescopes that can send to the satellites, then the satellite can send to another link, and another link, another link, to the destination. Janet: I want to use that for my syllabus now. But the class ??1:18:49 Let the known lead you to the unknown. Mr. Nashid: And the unknown lead you to the known. Yeah, that' ; s it. George Washington Carver, look what he did. He took the peanut, and look where it -- all those uses. So once he finds something there, there' ; s more to it. Cause the Creator has infinite knowledge, and we cannot even contain all that infinite knowledge. Janet: We just read a little bit about George Washington Carver in one of the books in one of our classes. He was a deeply spiritual person -- he was really a mystic, wasn' ; t he? 1:19:37 Mr. Nashid: I wouldn' ; t say a mystic, cause people like that, they -- see, this is the thing I read about him, and it was one book: The Man Who Talked With Flowers. He gave credit to the Creator every time he learned something. Most scientists, they give the credit to themselves, but as he did, he learned this, he gave credit to the Creator then the Creator opened up more. And that' ; s all the Creator asks us to do is give the credit where credit is due. So if you learn something from Janet, Ehryn, then don' ; t say Ehryn taught Janet. Janet shared what she learned, and give the credit. You know, so that' ; s what -- that' ; s why you see the scientists make the error they have today. They' ; ll come up with something and then they' ; ll say, well, ' ; I invented this.' ; No, God opened up that knowledge about everything all the time. We just couldn' ; t see it. We just couldn' ; t see it. 1:20:48 Looking at the cars that we have now, you can kick your foot up under the back of the trunk and it opens up without a key. But the technology, and the advance in the technology -- from knowing something to taking it to where it need to go, you' ; re taking it somewhere else. So it' ; s God, the Creator. So that' ; s the thing that he did. All throughout that book you' ; ll see every time he did something, he gave the credit to the Creator. And that' ; s all the Creator, so hey, why should we not recognize who gave it to us? Cause we did not make this. And now we say, the Creator. Just say thank you, give credit, ' ; If it wasn' ; t for the Creator, I wouldn' ; t have done this,' ; ' ; By the grace of God I' ; ve learned this.' ; And then more things will open up, but that' ; s the selfishness in people where we want to take the credit -- we want to be better than the other one, and that only come about from a spirit that' ; s in us. In the religion of Al-Islam, we say ' ; the jinn' ; . That' ; s a spirit that' ; s -- appetite that' ; s unchecked. A spirit that' ; s unchecked. And if you don' ; t watch it, it' ; ll have you doing things that -- within your own nature -- just like, I was asking about, your mother made cookies, and you sneaked and got one. Oh, Janet said she sneaked and got one! But something told her not to do that. Something said, ' ; No, don' ; t do that.' ; That' ; s that conscience that' ; s in us. We get ready to do something that' ; s not right, there' ; s a conscience in us to say don' ; t do it.1:22:57 They' ; re gonna speak to you, speak to you, and the more you ignore it, it' ; s like the sound will say, ' ; Don' ; t do that, Janet. Don' ; t do that, Janet. Janet, keep with me.' ; And it' ; s still there, the more we be doin' ; something, so that' ; s the police in us. There was something that Prophet Muhammad, during his life (peace be upon him), established. They [did not] have jails. He talked to people about how the conscience that' ; s put in us polices us to do what' ; s right and not do the things that are wrong. And that' ; s an innate nature. That' ; s in us -- it' ; s innate. That we have every human being, but if we don' ; t listen to it... 1:23:49 I remember growing up, we used to watch The Little Rascal, with Spanky. He was told to stay home, as they said -- and they make mockery of this here -- of the human nature. Those who know those behaviors that I was speaking about earlier, they have an angel, as they said, on this shoulder, right? And then, what did they say, a devil on this shoulder? And the angel said, ' ; No, Spanky, don' ; t go out the house.' ; *referring to the devil on the other shoulder* ' ; Go on, go! You can be back before your parents get back.' ; And he listened to the -- this one. That' ; s the one that got him in trouble. So we have that in us, the jinn (Arabic word for ' ; uncontrolled spirit' ; ). We have to check it, and make it conform to being obedient to the Creator. And let the nature in us, that is, the obedient nature -- let that grow and become strong. And that' ; ll be in the heart -- the sentiments. Having the right sentiment. Where it would do the mind. Cause there' ; s some things the mind would say is logic, but the heart' ; ll say, ' ; No, that ain' ; t quite right.' ; That be your heart speaking to you -- your conscience be saying it' ; s not quite right. Yeah, that' ; s just us. That' ; s in our -- every human being! Everyone. So, that' ; s the nature. And as long as...it' ; s the nature of life. That' ; s what it is. 1:25:37 So y' ; all have a question? Janet: We got to ask everyone' ; s questions, so... Mr. Nashid: We didn' ; t talk much about Africatown, but I am following up -- as I said earlier -- I talk with Miss Robertson, Natalie. She was here for the celebration and I just got her book. It just came in. Just came in -- I got it Thursday. I have not had a chance to read it yet, but I wanted to read her book to research what she had found out about Muslims being part of the slave trade. I told her what I was working on and she said yeah, there were some. So if you -- you can go to her page, Google Natalie Robertson. Her book is the... Janet: Is it Africatown, USA? Is that... Mr. Nashid: What I' ; ll do, I' ; ll take a picture of the book and send it. Yeah, I think it' ; s Africatown-- Janet: She went back to Benin and did research there-- Mr. Nashid: Yeah, yeah, it was something like that with her book. Yeah, she' ; s a professor somewhere...I forget which university she' ; s at. But her site -- just Google her name, it' ; ll come up. 1:26:59 Now, there -- I was telling about a good friend of mine, just launched a ministry called Al-Islam Worldwide Ministry. And what we' ; re doing, we' ; re trying to give. And he say worldwide because on his Facebook page, there are people from South Africa, there are people from Africa, there are people from Indonesia -- that they tune in to his Jumu' ; ah prayer, which is the Friday prayer. Every Friday we come -- we' ; re on a different time -- and they listen to the way that we teach the religion, other than the honorable Elijah Muhammad and Imam Warith Deen Muhammad do. So he been working on the water and launched that. 1:27:49 There' ; s another good friend of mine, he' ; s just wrote his third book -- I just got that one. His name, let me spell it for you. Google his name: Faheem, F-A-H-E-E-M, Shauibe, S-H-U-A-I-B-E, Shuaibe. He just put [out] a book, [The Clear Path to Human Development: Human Science in Scriptural Language]. I just got that one too. But you can see that one. But what we' ; re doing -- we' ; re not trying to convert people from their religion. I say, if you' ; re Christian, be a good one. My daughter and I go at it -- my daughter. She says, ' ; Dad, I want to be a Christian.' ; Okay, be a good one. Her problem -- the problem that we have -- is, she want to thank Jesus and not thank God, but her mother was Christian so that' ; s what she learned. She learned that, so... And we' ; ll get off the phone when we get to that point because-- Janet: Interfaith family then. Mr. Nashid: Huh? Janet: You' ; re an interfaith family. Different faiths in the family. Mr. Nashid: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, the parent in me wants, you know... But I have to recognize that that' ; s her choice. But I tell her, give the credit -- why give the credit to the creation versus give the credit to the Creator? That' ; s who should get it. Christ was creation, and the Creator created him, so give the credit to the Creator. And I think that a lot have misunderstood when he says, ' ; ask in my name.' ; That didn' ; t say, give me the credit in my name, it said ask. That quote in the Bible said, ' ; Ask in my name.' ; So whatever happened, it' ; s by the grace of God that it happened. So she and I, we' ; ll get on something and she' ; ll say, ' ; Thank you, Jesus.' ; I say, ' ; Why you do that?' ; Well then it' ; s time to go. But, I don' ; t try to convert anybody from their religion, I just say, be a good whatever it is. I have Buddhist friends, I have a few Hindu friends, I have a few Jewish friends, few Christians -- more Christian friends. And some of them that -- the Christian friends that I have -- I' ; d trust my life with them. Because I see the humanity in them. I put aside the religion so everybody can have...cause you have to account for your... Those are the things that Prophet Muhammad established -- the freedom of religion. He did not tell the Jews they had to give up their religion. In fact, he told the Muslims -- we have to practice it till today -- that we have to protect the other house of worships. So this anti-Muslim and anti-Christian, that' ; s some narrow minded thinking of people who don' ; t have an understanding of the religion. Or being anti-Jewish. The situation in Palestine and Israel, there' ; s a segment of the Jewish people who don' ; t like that, and there' ; s a segment of the people that do. But you have to look at where the segment that do come from. And that will be the ones that came out of Europe, and through the UN -- saying, okay, you' ; re all seeking asylum from Germany and the rule at that time, so this will be a place where y' ; all can come. But then they get there and want to take over, and that' ; s... Now they' ; re fighting, and hopefully somebody on one side see that the fighting hadn' ; t resolved it, so why can' ; t we just sit down and settle this and we have our territory and you have your territory? 1:32:22 And then we barter on the goods that we have and the goods that you have. Cause there' ; s something that you have that I don' ; t have that I need, but there' ; s something that I have that you don' ; t have that you need. And that' ; ll make for...simple. Cause [since the] 1967 [war], and this is 2019. The fighting hadn' ; t resolved it, so...too many people been killed. On both sides. Too many. And it' ; s not Al-Islam to go and call yourself a suicide bomber and you be a martyr. You going to hell. Cause God says do not kill yourself. That' ; s in the fourth chapter, verse 28. Don' ; t kill yourself! So you strap on something and say, ' ; I' ; m being a martyr and I' ; m fighting in the cause of God.' ; No. You don' ; t fight in the cause of God that way. Cause you put your standard of fighting in what you' ; re saying for God. You should have the standard that God say you should fight for, versus, I come up with my own take and this is what I' ; m gone do. So God never said fight like that, cause that' ; s not...that' ; s not... Too many innocent people killed. You' ; re gonna go and kill an innocent person that has nothing to do with what' ; s going on? I' ; m sitting here eating, me and my family, and next thing I know, boom. And I don' ; t know where it come from. That' ; s not Al-Islam, and that' ; s not being a martyr. And whoever misguided those young people, they' ; re gonna burn up in hell for misguiding them and making them think that that' ; s martyrdom. No. The Prophet said ' ; the ink of the scholar is more precious than the blood of the martyr.' ; The ink of the scholar is more precious than the blood of the martyr. So knowledge. Sit down and talk about things -- how to do them. So that' ; s not the religion. That' ; s not the religion. And when you fight in God' ; s cause, you have to fight with the tools that God gives. And if it comes down to a battle -- where there was numerous battles that the prophet had with people. They didn' ; t like the idea that he introduced the religion and they were freeing the people from being enslaved. And he was -- he was introducing an order that was changing the order. So you have that resistance of those in control losing the power -- I say the pseudo-power. 1:35:41 Cause they don' ; t have no power -- we don' ; t have no power. How many of you can tell me you have the power to wake up in the morning? Anybody? How many of you can tell me that you have the power to know what' ; s going on when you sleep? Nobody. So, you know, we don' ; t have no power, and the situation... We don' ; t have that power. We don' ; t have that power to do that. So we should just recognize human beings. We are human beings, that' ; s it. We are all human beings. Yeah. This is what God said ; he created us. In the Qur' ; an, Chapter 49 verse 13, ' ; I created you in tribes and nations, that you may know each other.' ; And he separated us. History. Separated us, put some in Europe, put some in the Middle East, put some here, put some there. And then they had to try to traverse the waters to get to other lands. Like when Columbus -- they didn' ; t want to sail on the water cause they thought that at the end of it, you' ; re gonna fall of. And if you look at it -- have any of you ever been on a cruise? When you look way down at where the sun and the water meets together, you think that' ; s the edge. That you gone fall over, but the earth is round. But they was scared to traverse because that' ; s what they saw -- a flat. They just saw it flat, and you can see where the earth -- or if you' ; ve been in the desert, where you can see where the earth and the sun meet each other. That' ; s the flat part, but the earth is round, so you' ; re not gone fall. 1:38:08 Having the knowledge... I' ; m trying to think -- why did I say that? *laughing* Ah, well it' ; ll come back to me, but he put all in separate places, we had to traverse the water and now we connect with each other. When I was growing up, I didn' ; t know what was going on in other countries, but now, you all see what' ; s going on instantly. With the satellite, you can see what' ; s going on in this part of the world. It' ; s daylight here, but it' ; s dark somewhere else and you can see what' ; s going on. Through the technology that man have -- when I say man I' ; m talking about women included -- have advanced in the knowledge. Cause women have done a lot. And this year women marked -- what do they call it, Women' ; s History Month? I think that that' ; s it. Yeah, women have done a lot. And they have done a lot to keep us men sane. Kept us from doing things that we shouldn' ; t have done -- the women, come in. Cause that' ; s what mother did. She come in and say, ' ; No, don' ; t do that, son. If you do that, this [will] happen. And if you don' ; t obey me, I' ; m going to give you something like what' ; s going to happen if you don' ; t change your bad ways.' ; So women have come in, and kind of -- they' ; re more sober-minded than us men. So we' ; re all coming together. And when we were separated, but that' ; s by divine plan, bring everybody together and we can communicate worldwide now. They call it the worldwide web, because they studied the spider. The spider built a web, and it goes up here, and then a line running down to -- running to each connecter, and when some hit it, it know exactly where to go because it sends a message to the spider that something light has landed and stuck. So they say the worldwide web, so that' ; s a spiderweb if you look at it. It' ; s a spiderweb. So man did not -- everything that we come up that we say we created or made, God has already put it here, we just didn' ; t know how to connect the dots. And with sincerity and earnest seeking it, the known lead us to the unknown, but we want it to go there for a good reason to share and not be dominant. So God opened it up. So that' ; s the worldwide web -- the spider web. Look at one that' ; s built and how they... So everything we have that we see is -- we were living in huts, living in caves...it was cold and we looked at the bees and see how they build their nest and it' ; s cool. And what time is Reggie coming? 1:41:47 Janet: You know, I' ; m not even sure. He' ; ll come in when he' ; s ready, but Courtney, I wanted to double-check, did you need to be home by a certain time? *conversing about possibly taking Courtney home* Janet: ...but Mr. Nashid, you' ; re more than welcome to stay. I think that Santi' ; s gonna be cooking. So you could... Mr. Nashid: Oh, okay. Well, I mean, I' ; ll stay with them. Janet: Please do! Please, I just -- I don' ; t want her parents to get concerned. video 0 https://oberlincollegelibrary.org/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=
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Mr. Nashid Rushdan
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Success 4 the Future
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